Discussion:
Amp ratings
(too old to reply)
nandan21
2008-08-25 11:56:32 UTC
Permalink
What is the difference between lab.gruppen rating its amp on 'max
output power' Crown rating it at 'Guaranteed minimum power in watts'
and Phonic rating it as 'Continuous average output power'? How can you
compare their specs?
George's ProSound Company
2008-08-25 12:19:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by nandan21
What is the difference between lab.gruppen rating its amp on 'max
output power' Crown rating it at 'Guaranteed minimum power in watts'
and Phonic rating it as 'Continuous average output power'? How can you
compare their specs?
you can't
while LG and Crown specs will accurately reflect what ever test load and
distortion they choose to use as test paramaters
though still not directly comparable they will tend twards giving you a idea
of the amps capabilities
the phonic specs will be created in the marketing department

instead of compareing amp to amp specs I would be compareing amp to load
specs
again you may not know who the reputable pro sound mfgrs are, but phonic is
not one of them
if you run karoke at the corner bar or dj your frat house perhaps phonic is
the proper amp for you
if you looking to build a pro sound rig, it is as far away from what you
ought be using as you can get


george
liquidator
2008-08-25 15:06:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by George's ProSound Company
Post by nandan21
What is the difference between lab.gruppen rating its amp on 'max
output power' Crown rating it at 'Guaranteed minimum power in watts'
and Phonic rating it as 'Continuous average output power'? How can you
compare their specs?
you can't
while LG and Crown specs will accurately reflect what ever test load and
distortion they choose to use as test paramaters
though still not directly comparable they will tend twards giving you a idea
of the amps capabilities
the phonic specs will be created in the marketing department
instead of compareing amp to amp specs I would be compareing amp to load
specs
again you may not know who the reputable pro sound mfgrs are, but phonic is
not one of them
if you run karoke at the corner bar or dj your frat house perhaps phonic is
the proper amp for you
if you looking to build a pro sound rig, it is as far away from what you
ought be using as you can get
george
Just to expand on what George is saying, read all the fine print on those
spec sheets. They tell the conditions for the tests.

The most common is either a full bandwidth test, or a 1 kHz test. Generally
just giving the resulsts of the 1 kHz test allows you to say the amp puts
out a few more watts.

A 1 kHz rating may not tell you how the amp will do on subs from 40-100 hz
for instance.

The Phonic method IMHO is simply throwing darts at a board. Wherever the
dart lands is what they rate the amp. If the manufacturer is not reputable,
don't trust their ratings.

Ebay has all kinds of 3000 watt amps that are really a few watts. Often 90%
less than rated.

You don't go a lot into what your need are. But IMHO a used quality amp
would be peferable to a new Phonic.

Bang for the buck, hard to beat the Behringer 2500.

For a little more, QSC RMX amps. Most manufacturers now have a budget line.

With a name brand, you stand a good chance of getting it fixed 3 years from
now.

Something like the Phonic- maybe yes, maybe no.

Do you really want to toss that 500 dollar item into a recycling bin in a
couple years?

LG are good amps. Normally don't have comparisons asked between them and
Phonic- akin to asking what's the difference between a Yugo and a Mercedes.
Eeyore
2008-08-25 20:12:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by liquidator
Bang for the buck, hard to beat the Behringer 2500.
See Ron (UK)'s comments on the reliability of these. In other words - JUNK.

Graha
Ron(UK)
2008-08-25 20:15:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eeyore
Post by liquidator
Bang for the buck, hard to beat the Behringer 2500.
See Ron (UK)'s comments on the reliability of these. In other words - JUNK.
Well I had 'bad luck' with two, and the one I recommended a friend to
buy went titsup also, but others here have had no problems. I still
have one which is working ok, but I`ve lost faith in them and won't
risk it on a gig.

Ron(UK)
George's ProSound Company
2008-08-26 03:46:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eeyore
Post by liquidator
Bang for the buck, hard to beat the Behringer 2500.
See Ron (UK)'s comments on the reliability of these. In other words - JUNK.
Well I had 'bad luck' with two, and the one I recommended a friend to buy
went titsup also, but others here have had no problems. I still have one
which is working ok, but I`ve lost faith in them and won't risk it on a
gig.
Ron(UK)
I have 10 or so thathave been doing fierce duty for a couple of years, best
value in amps IMO
I would not trust anything from crown or crest on one of my gigs
George
Eeyore
2008-08-26 05:00:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by George's ProSound Company
Post by Eeyore
Post by liquidator
Bang for the buck, hard to beat the Behringer 2500.
See Ron (UK)'s comments on the reliability of these. In other words - JUNK.
Well I had 'bad luck' with two, and the one I recommended a friend to buy
went titsup also, but others here have had no problems. I still have one
which is working ok, but I`ve lost faith in them and won't risk it on a
gig.
I have 10 or so thathave been doing fierce duty for a couple of years, best
value in amps IMO
I would not trust anything from crown or crest on one of my gigs
I can't help wondering if those made for the US market still use solder with
lead in it. That could explain a lot.

Graham
Ron(UK)
2008-08-26 07:57:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eeyore
Post by George's ProSound Company
Post by Eeyore
Post by liquidator
Bang for the buck, hard to beat the Behringer 2500.
See Ron (UK)'s comments on the reliability of these. In other words - JUNK.
Well I had 'bad luck' with two, and the one I recommended a friend to buy
went titsup also, but others here have had no problems. I still have one
which is working ok, but I`ve lost faith in them and won't risk it on a
gig.
I have 10 or so thathave been doing fierce duty for a couple of years, best
value in amps IMO
I would not trust anything from crown or crest on one of my gigs
I can't help wondering if those made for the US market still use solder with
lead in it. That could explain a lot.
Graham
I cant see that being the case, maybe the amps I had came from the same
duff batch - I bought one, then being chuffed with it, bought a further
two. I havent checked, but I wouldn`t mind betting that the two that
failed were the two I bought together, tho the failures weren`t the
same. One was a thermally induced fault, quite likely a dry joint (but
how do you find it? they all look dry!) The other just blows it`s mains
fuse at random even when not pushed.


Ron(UK)
George's ProSound Company
2008-08-26 10:30:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ron(UK)
Post by Eeyore
Post by George's ProSound Company
Post by Eeyore
Post by liquidator
Bang for the buck, hard to beat the Behringer 2500.
See Ron (UK)'s comments on the reliability of these. In other words - JUNK.
Well I had 'bad luck' with two, and the one I recommended a friend to buy
went titsup also, but others here have had no problems. I still have one
which is working ok, but I`ve lost faith in them and won't risk it on a
gig.
I have 10 or so thathave been doing fierce duty for a couple of years, best
value in amps IMO
I would not trust anything from crown or crest on one of my gigs
I can't help wondering if those made for the US market still use solder with
lead in it. That could explain a lot.
Graham
I cant see that being the case, maybe the amps I had came from the same
duff batch - I bought one, then being chuffed with it, bought a further
two. I havent checked, but I wouldn`t mind betting that the two that
failed were the two I bought together, tho the failures weren`t the same.
One was a thermally induced fault, quite likely a dry joint (but how do
you find it? they all look dry!) The other just blows it`s mains fuse at
random even when not pushed.
Ron(UK)\
Here is a testomonial from a fellow that was "very" pleased with the
behringer ep2500's running bridged 4 ohm loads for a large outdoor event
Post by Ron(UK)
Subject: Behringer EP2500
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 10:21:16 -0400
Dear Mr. Gleason,
I wanted to take a moment to comment on my recent
rental of 4 Behringer EP2500 Power Amplifiers
from your Co. I had each amp in Bridge Mono mode
powering a double 18" subwoofer with a 4 ohm load. This was a festival
setting with multiple
bands of every type playing all day. The amps
performed
flawlessly over the 2 day event. With a rated
output of 2,500 watts in bridge mode I had more
headroom
than ever before. For an amp to sound and perform
this well for such an affordable price is truly a
remarkable feat. How did Behringer do it?
I had many people comment on the depth and punch of
the low end. Several band members and their sound
people were a little surprised when I said the subs
were powered by Behringers. I'm now looking forward
to
trying them on my stage monitors. I have no doubt
that they'll do a great job. Thanks again for the
great rate
on the rental.
Sincerely,
Greg Bennett
Moon Dog Sound
Ron I have no idea what happened to your amps prior to delivery but failure
is not typical on the ep2500's

Damn good amp.
George
Ron(UK)
2008-08-26 11:26:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by George's ProSound Company
Here is a testomonial from a fellow that was "very" pleased with the
behringer ep2500's running bridged 4 ohm loads for a large outdoor event
Post by Ron(UK)
Subject: Behringer EP2500
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 10:21:16 -0400
Dear Mr. Gleason,
I wanted to take a moment to comment on my recent
rental of 4 Behringer EP2500 Power Amplifiers
from your Co. I had each amp in Bridge Mono mode
powering a double 18" subwoofer with a 4 ohm load. This was a festival
setting with multiple
bands of every type playing all day. The amps
performed
flawlessly over the 2 day event. With a rated
output of 2,500 watts in bridge mode I had more
headroom
than ever before. For an amp to sound and perform
this well for such an affordable price is truly a
remarkable feat. How did Behringer do it?
I had many people comment on the depth and punch of
the low end. Several band members and their sound
people were a little surprised when I said the subs
were powered by Behringers. I'm now looking forward
to
trying them on my stage monitors. I have no doubt
that they'll do a great job. Thanks again for the
great rate
on the rental.
Sincerely,
Greg Bennett
Moon Dog Sound
Ron I have no idea what happened to your amps prior to delivery but failure
is not typical on the ep2500's
Damn good amp.
George
Just unlucky I guess.

Ron
liquidator
2008-08-25 21:11:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eeyore
Post by liquidator
Bang for the buck, hard to beat the Behringer 2500.
See Ron (UK)'s comments on the reliability of these. In other words - JUNK.
Graha
And I know of 4 that have worked 7 night a week for over a year.

I do know lots of problems for all manufacturers happened way back when
solder changed. But if you look around the net you are WAY wrong Graham.
Almost everybody running them is very happy. Very few sour grapes.

And frankly- I had worse issues with Crown and Crest than Ron had.
Eeyore
2008-08-25 21:54:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by liquidator
Post by Eeyore
Post by liquidator
Bang for the buck, hard to beat the Behringer 2500.
See Ron (UK)'s comments on the reliability of these. In other words - JUNK.
And I know of 4 that have worked 7 night a week for over a year.
Are they made with lead-free solder ?
Post by liquidator
I do know lots of problems for all manufacturers happened way back when
solder changed. But if you look around the net you are WAY wrong Graham.
Almost everybody running them is very happy. Very few sour grapes.
And frankly- I had worse issues with Crown and Crest than Ron had
Well ... Ron and his friend have been VERY unlucky then.

Basically 'my' venue won't touch Behringer any more. We'd rather pay more.

Graham
Eeyore
2008-08-25 21:58:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eeyore
Post by liquidator
Post by Eeyore
Post by liquidator
Bang for the buck, hard to beat the Behringer 2500.
See Ron (UK)'s comments on the reliability of these. In other words - JUNK.
And I know of 4 that have worked 7 night a week for over a year.
Are they made with lead-free solder ?
Post by liquidator
I do know lots of problems for all manufacturers happened way back when
solder changed. But if you look around the net you are WAY wrong Graham.
Almost everybody running them is very happy. Very few sour grapes.
And frankly- I had worse issues with Crown and Crest than Ron had
Well ... Ron and his friend have been VERY unlucky then.
Basically 'my' venue won't touch Behringer any more. We'd rather pay more.
Or LESS in the case of a 10 1/2 year old but immaculate (aside from rack rash)
Studiomaster 700D for the HF drivers. 2 x 200W @ 8 ohms.

Price ? £56. He also wanted our old Martin wedges which are really too big for
our tiny stage so we ended up in PROFIT !

Graham
George's ProSound Company
2008-08-26 03:48:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by liquidator
Post by Eeyore
Post by liquidator
Bang for the buck, hard to beat the Behringer 2500.
See Ron (UK)'s comments on the reliability of these. In other words -
JUNK.
Post by Eeyore
Graha
And I know of 4 that have worked 7 night a week for over a year.
I do know lots of problems for all manufacturers happened way back when
solder changed. But if you look around the net you are WAY wrong Graham.
Almost everybody running them is very happy. Very few sour grapes.
And frankly- I had worse issues with Crown and Crest than Ron had.
The behringer out perform, as far as reliability ,both crest and crown. That
would be Crest Professional series and crown macro-techs

George
Eeyore
2008-08-26 05:01:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by George's ProSound Company
Post by liquidator
And frankly- I had worse issues with Crown and Crest than Ron had.
The behringer out perform, as far as reliability ,both crest and crown. That
would be Crest Professional series and crown macro-techs
Wait til lead-free solder is forced on you.

Graham
Phildo
2008-08-26 03:52:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eeyore
Post by liquidator
Bang for the buck, hard to beat the Behringer 2500.
See Ron (UK)'s comments on the reliability of these. In other words -
JUNK.
Ignore Eyesore when he goes on about Behringer. He has a very irrational
grudge against them so slags them off at every opportunity whether deserved
or not.

Phildo
Eeyore
2008-08-26 05:03:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phildo
Post by Eeyore
Post by liquidator
Bang for the buck, hard to beat the Behringer 2500.
See Ron (UK)'s comments on the reliability of these. In other words -
JUNK.
Ignore Eyesore when he goes on about Behringer. He has a very irrational
grudge against them so slags them off at every opportunity whether deserved
or not.
That is such utter rubbish it's literally untrue. I have several times
recommended Behringer kit. It's horses for courses. I have even 'spoken' with
Uli by email and he enquired if I'd like a job with them but I didn't fancy
moving to Germany or the Phillipines.

Graham
liquidator
2008-08-26 17:04:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eeyore
Post by Phildo
Post by Eeyore
Post by liquidator
Bang for the buck, hard to beat the Behringer 2500.
See Ron (UK)'s comments on the reliability of these. In other words -
JUNK.
Ignore Eyesore when he goes on about Behringer. He has a very irrational
grudge against them so slags them off at every opportunity whether deserved
or not.
That is such utter rubbish it's literally untrue. I have several times
recommended Behringer kit. It's horses for courses. I have even 'spoken' with
Uli by email and he enquired if I'd like a job with them but I didn't fancy
moving to Germany or the Phillipines.
Graham
Hell, tell him to call me.

I could stand a few years of German girls and German beer...
Eeyore
2008-08-26 21:10:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by liquidator
Post by Eeyore
Post by Phildo
Post by Eeyore
Post by liquidator
Bang for the buck, hard to beat the Behringer 2500.
See Ron (UK)'s comments on the reliability of these. In other words -
JUNK.
Ignore Eyesore when he goes on about Behringer. He has a very irrational
grudge against them so slags them off at every opportunity whether
deserved or not.
That is such utter rubbish it's literally untrue. I have several times
recommended Behringer kit. It's horses for courses. I have even 'spoken'
with Uli by email and he enquired if I'd like a job with them but I didn't
fancy moving to Germany or the Phillipines.
Hell, tell him to call me.
I could stand a few years of German girls and German beer...
LOL. They're in some small 'village' IIRC. But it's near Munich or somewhere
big.

If you recall a few years back, maybe only 18 months or so, Phildo and I were
having a row about Behringer and (I forget his name now) the US rep sent me an
e-mail, suggesting I ask Uli directly about the subject in question. That ended
up being a series of correspondences. I was not in the best state at the time to
consider moving, so I declined since it seemed they wanted permanent staff
rather than contract (which I would certainly have considered more seriously).

George knows the rep surely. Why not ask George to help you get in touch ?


Graham
liquidator
2008-08-26 21:35:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eeyore
Post by liquidator
Post by Eeyore
Post by Phildo
Post by Eeyore
Post by liquidator
Bang for the buck, hard to beat the Behringer 2500.
See Ron (UK)'s comments on the reliability of these. In other words -
JUNK.
Ignore Eyesore when he goes on about Behringer. He has a very irrational
grudge against them so slags them off at every opportunity whether
deserved or not.
That is such utter rubbish it's literally untrue. I have several times
recommended Behringer kit. It's horses for courses. I have even 'spoken'
with Uli by email and he enquired if I'd like a job with them but I didn't
fancy moving to Germany or the Phillipines.
Hell, tell him to call me.
I could stand a few years of German girls and German beer...
LOL. They're in some small 'village' IIRC. But it's near Munich or somewhere
big.
If you recall a few years back, maybe only 18 months or so, Phildo and I were
having a row about Behringer and (I forget his name now) the US rep sent me an
e-mail, suggesting I ask Uli directly about the subject in question. That ended
up being a series of correspondences. I was not in the best state at the time to
consider moving, so I declined since it seemed they wanted permanent staff
rather than contract (which I would certainly have considered more seriously).
George knows the rep surely. Why not ask George to help you get in touch ?
Graham
Pretty much kidding, I would probably prefer to work sales anyway. I know
Jim Savery a tad also...at least a few conversations worth.

It would take something serious to force me out of retirement. If somebody
serious would buy Altec Lansing Pro from that car stereo company, actually I
guess Plantronics bought the stereo company,, I'd be back there in a
heartbeat.

But the temptation of a couple years in Europe and gettting paid to be
there. If I was 20 years younger...and I'm sure the redhead would take a dim
view of me chatting up the local girls.
George's ProSound Company
2008-08-26 21:55:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eeyore
Post by Eeyore
Post by liquidator
Post by Eeyore
Post by Phildo
Post by Eeyore
Post by liquidator
Bang for the buck, hard to beat the Behringer 2500.
See Ron (UK)'s comments on the reliability of these. In other
words -
Post by Eeyore
Post by liquidator
Post by Eeyore
Post by Phildo
JUNK.
Ignore Eyesore when he goes on about Behringer. He has a very
irrational
Post by Eeyore
Post by liquidator
Post by Eeyore
Post by Phildo
grudge against them so slags them off at every opportunity whether
deserved or not.
That is such utter rubbish it's literally untrue. I have several times
recommended Behringer kit. It's horses for courses. I have even
'spoken'
Post by Eeyore
Post by liquidator
Post by Eeyore
with Uli by email and he enquired if I'd like a job with them but I
didn't
Post by Eeyore
Post by liquidator
Post by Eeyore
fancy moving to Germany or the Phillipines.
Hell, tell him to call me.
I could stand a few years of German girls and German beer...
LOL. They're in some small 'village' IIRC. But it's near Munich or
somewhere
Post by Eeyore
big.
If you recall a few years back, maybe only 18 months or so, Phildo and I
were
Post by Eeyore
having a row about Behringer and (I forget his name now) the US rep sent
Post by liquidator
George knows the rep surely. Why not ask George to help you get in touch ?
Graham
I don't know any of the US reps
I consider Jim Savery a friend but his position is WORLD customer service
rep
Uli is actually one very pleasant down to earth person, in fact I have had
nothing but wonderful exchanges with the entire behringer staff, from the
top right down to the message takers
George
Eeyore
2008-08-27 20:39:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by George's ProSound Company
Post by Eeyore
If you recall a few years back, maybe only 18 months or so, Phildo and I
were having a row about Behringer and (I forget his name now) the US rep
sent
Post by Eeyore
Post by Eeyore
George knows the rep surely. Why not ask George to help you get in touch ?
I don't know any of the US reps
I consider Jim Savery a friend but his position is WORLD customer service
rep
Even back then ? My misunderstanding in that case. I thought he purely covered
the USA but took an interest in other markets too as any decent top rep should
do.
Post by George's ProSound Company
Uli is actually one very pleasant down to earth person, in fact I have had
nothing but wonderful exchanges with the entire behringer staff, from the
top right down to the message takers
The exchanges I had with Uli were very polite and I got the impression he was a
pretty genuine guy.

Graham
Joe Kotroczo
2008-08-29 07:18:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eeyore
Post by liquidator
Post by Eeyore
Post by Phildo
Post by Eeyore
Post by liquidator
Bang for the buck, hard to beat the Behringer 2500.
See Ron (UK)'s comments on the reliability of these. In other words -
JUNK.
Ignore Eyesore when he goes on about Behringer. He has a very irrational
grudge against them so slags them off at every opportunity whether
deserved or not.
That is such utter rubbish it's literally untrue. I have several times
recommended Behringer kit. It's horses for courses. I have even 'spoken'
with Uli by email and he enquired if I'd like a job with them but I didn't
fancy moving to Germany or the Phillipines.
Hell, tell him to call me.
I could stand a few years of German girls and German beer...
LOL. They're in some small 'village' IIRC. But it's near Munich or somewhere
big.
LOL. It's actually nowhere near Bavaria at all, it's smack in the middle of
the densely populated Ruhrgebiet, between Düsseldorf, Dortmund and
Möchengladbach, roughly.
--
Joe Kotroczo ***@mac.com
Eeyore
2008-08-29 21:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Kotroczo
Post by Eeyore
Post by liquidator
Post by Eeyore
Post by Phildo
Post by Eeyore
Post by liquidator
Bang for the buck, hard to beat the Behringer 2500.
See Ron (UK)'s comments on the reliability of these. In other words -
JUNK.
Ignore Eyesore when he goes on about Behringer. He has a very irrational
grudge against them so slags them off at every opportunity whether
deserved or not.
That is such utter rubbish it's literally untrue. I have several times
recommended Behringer kit. It's horses for courses. I have even 'spoken'
with Uli by email and he enquired if I'd like a job with them but I didn't
fancy moving to Germany or the Phillipines.
Hell, tell him to call me.
I could stand a few years of German girls and German beer...
LOL. They're in some small 'village' IIRC. But it's near Munich or somewhere
big.
LOL. It's actually nowhere near Bavaria at all, it's smack in the middle of
the densely populated Ruhrgebiet, between Düsseldorf, Dortmund and
Möchengladbach, roughly.
It's been a while since I found it on Google maps. It was a mere guess.

Graham
Mickey
2008-08-26 15:11:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by liquidator
Post by Eeyore
Post by liquidator
Bang for the buck, hard to beat the Behringer 2500.
See Ron (UK)'s comments on the reliability of these. In other words -
JUNK.
Post by Eeyore
Graha
And I know of 4 that have worked 7 night a week for over a year.
I do know lots of problems for all manufacturers happened way back when
solder changed. But if you look around the net you are WAY wrong Graham.
Almost everybody running them is very happy. Very few sour grapes.
And frankly- I had worse issues with Crown and Crest than Ron had.
To add to the anecdotal evidence, I bought an EP2500 and an EP1500
based on the testimonials here. I haven't been disappointed at all.
They are used daily -- albeit in not-very-demanding environments --
and never a problem over the past 14 months.
--
Mickey
There's nothing sweeter than life nor more precious than time.
-- Barney
nandan21
2008-08-26 16:51:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mickey
Post by liquidator
Post by Eeyore
 Bang for the buck, hard to beat the Behringer 2500.
See Ron (UK)'s comments on the reliability of these. In other words -
JUNK.
Post by Eeyore
Graha
And I know of 4 that have worked 7 night a week for over a year.
 I do know lots of problems for all manufacturers happened way back when
solder changed. But if you look around the net you are WAY wrong Graham.
Almost everybody running them is very happy. Very few sour grapes.
 And frankly- I had worse issues with Crown and Crest than Ron had.
To add to the anecdotal evidence, I bought an EP2500 and an EP1500
based on the testimonials here. I haven't been disappointed at all.
They are used daily -- albeit in not-very-demanding environments --
and never a problem over the past 14 months.
--
Mickey
There's nothing sweeter than life nor more precious than time.
-- Barney- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Phonic XP 5000 has both FTC and EIA ratings in its tech brochure.
Eeyore
2008-08-26 20:56:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mickey
Post by liquidator
Post by Eeyore
Post by liquidator
Bang for the buck, hard to beat the Behringer 2500.
See Ron (UK)'s comments on the reliability of these. In other words -
JUNK.
And I know of 4 that have worked 7 night a week for over a year.
I do know lots of problems for all manufacturers happened way back when
solder changed. But if you look around the net you are WAY wrong Graham.
Almost everybody running them is very happy. Very few sour grapes.
And frankly- I had worse issues with Crown and Crest than Ron had.
To add to the anecdotal evidence, I bought an EP2500 and an EP1500
based on the testimonials here. I haven't been disappointed at all.
They are used daily -- albeit in not-very-demanding environments --
and never a problem over the past 14 months.
I still have my suspicions about lead-free vs leaded solder.

I've forgotten Uli's email but maybe I should ask him if I can get it again.

Graham
Stephen McLuckie
2008-08-27 11:36:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eeyore
I still have my suspicions about lead-free vs leaded solder.
What are your suspicions?

Stephen
Eeyore
2008-08-27 12:01:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen McLuckie
Post by Eeyore
I still have my suspicions about lead-free vs leaded solder.
What are your suspicions?
It's more prone to fractured joints under vibration ( I know at least
one louspeaker manufacturer got an exemption because of this ) and then
there's the tin whiskers issue not to mention 'tin pest' where it
literally just eventually turns to powder at cold temperatures.

Don't store your gear in the truck overnight !

Graham
Pasi
2008-08-29 14:46:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eeyore
It's more prone to fractured joints under vibration ( I know at least
one louspeaker manufacturer got an exemption because of this ) and then
there's the tin whiskers issue not to mention 'tin pest' where it
literally just eventually turns to powder at cold temperatures.
Don't store your gear in the truck overnight !
Well how cold it should be to this kind of thing to happen? I know it
doesn't happen when temperature is somewhere between -30 to -35 celsius.
Joe Kotroczo
2008-08-29 15:06:31 UTC
Permalink
On 29/08/08 16:46, in article
Post by Pasi
Post by Eeyore
It's more prone to fractured joints under vibration ( I know at least
one louspeaker manufacturer got an exemption because of this ) and then
there's the tin whiskers issue not to mention 'tin pest' where it
literally just eventually turns to powder at cold temperatures.
Don't store your gear in the truck overnight !
Well how cold it should be to this kind of thing to happen? I know it
doesn't happen when temperature is somewhere between -30 to -35 celsius.
"At 13.2 degrees Celsius (about 56 degrees Fahrenheit) and below, pure tin
transforms from the (silvery, ductile) allotrope of β-modification white tin
to brittle, α-modification grey tin. Eventually it decomposes into powder,
hence the name tin pest."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_pest
--
Joe Kotroczo ***@mac.com
Pasi
2008-08-29 15:21:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Kotroczo
"At 13.2 degrees Celsius (about 56 degrees Fahrenheit) and below, pure tin
transforms from the (silvery, ductile) allotrope of $B&B(B-modification white
tin
to brittle, $B&A(B-modification grey tin. Eventually it decomposes into
powder,
hence the name tin pest."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_pest
--
From the same source.

Laboratory tests provide evidence that the time required for unalloyed tin
to develop significant tin pest damage at lowered temperatures is about 18
months, which is more than twice the length of Napoleon's Russian
campaign.[1]
Joe Kotroczo
2008-08-29 15:52:17 UTC
Permalink
On 29/08/08 17:21, in article
Post by Pasi
Post by Joe Kotroczo
"At 13.2 degrees Celsius (about 56 degrees Fahrenheit) and below, pure tin
transforms from the (silvery, ductile) allotrope of $B&B(B-modification
white tin to brittle, $B&A(B-modification grey tin. Eventually it
decomposes into powder, hence the name tin pest."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_pest
From the same source.
Laboratory tests provide evidence that the time required for unalloyed tin
to develop significant tin pest damage at lowered temperatures is about 18
months, which is more than twice the length of Napoleon's Russian
campaign.[1]
Yes. So? You replace all your gear after 6 winters?
--
Joe Kotroczo ***@mac.com
Pasi
2008-08-30 05:34:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Kotroczo
Yes. So? You replace all your gear after 6 winters?
No? Like I said, haven't seen that happening and we have quite a lot of
equipment which has lead-free tin and have been touring 10 -15 years. And we
have winter about 5-6 months in year. ( average temperature for day is -5 or
less)

So it seems that tin pest is a problem when Your gear is all the time in low
temp. That is why I don't see it as a problem. You usually change your gear
before it somes a problem.
Eeyore
2008-08-30 06:19:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pasi
Post by Joe Kotroczo
Yes. So? You replace all your gear after 6 winters?
No? Like I said, haven't seen that happening and we have quite a lot of
equipment which has lead-free tin and have been touring 10 -15 years.
Not with lead-free you haven't. It only became mandatory in the EU in 2006.
*No-one* used lead-free before then.

Did you know that lead was INTENTIONALLY added to electronics solder many mnay
decades ago to stop precisely the problems we are now seeing again ! Bloody
'greens' and politicians. I expect lead-free will decrease product life and more
equipment will now be prematurely thrown away. Bloody 'green' that is NOT !

Graham
Eeyore
2008-08-29 21:34:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pasi
Post by Eeyore
It's more prone to fractured joints under vibration ( I know at least
one louspeaker manufacturer got an exemption because of this ) and then
there's the tin whiskers issue not to mention 'tin pest' where it
literally just eventually turns to powder at cold temperatures.
Don't store your gear in the truck overnight !
Well how cold it should be to this kind of thing to happen? I know it
doesn't happen when temperature is somewhere between -30 to -35 celsius.
Actually - and very scarily - tin pest starts to occur at temperatures as
HIGH as 13C. Furthermore it then self-catalyses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_pest

"At 13.2 degrees Celsius (about 56 degrees Fahrenheit) and below, pure tin
transforms from the (silvery, ductile) allotrope of beta-modification white
tin to brittle, alpha-modification grey tin. Eventually it decomposes into
powder, hence the name tin pest.

The decomposition will catalyze itself, which is why the reaction seems to
speed up once it starts; the mere presence of tin pest leads to more tin
pest. Tin objects at low temperatures will simply disintegrate."

Graham
Eeyore
2008-08-25 20:24:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by liquidator
You don't go a lot into what your need are. But IMHO a used quality amp
would be peferable to a new Phonic.
Just bought for the Horn http://thehorn.co.uk/ (Music Pub of the Year 2008)

A Studiomaster (one of my own designs) 700D. Built in Feb 1998. A quick internal
examination showed impeccable internal condition and all test voltages spot on.
NO bulged caps etc. Replaced the input attenuators just for good measure.

Like one of these .....
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Studiomaster-700D-Poweramp-350w-350w-RMS_W0QQitemZ320289418706QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item320289418706&_trkparms=72%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

It cost £56 ! ( $110) for an amp that delivers 2 x 200W into 8 ohms (it's going
to be an HF compression driver amp) with 0.008% THD.

Bargains like these are to be found all over the place.

It'll easily work well for another ten years. And PISS over any damn Phonic.

Graham
geoff
2008-08-25 22:10:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eeyore
Post by liquidator
You don't go a lot into what your need are. But IMHO a used quality
amp would be peferable to a new Phonic.
Just bought for the Horn http://thehorn.co.uk/ (Music Pub of the Year 2008)
A Studiomaster (one of my own designs) 700D. Built in Feb 1998. A
quick internal examination showed impeccable internal condition and
all test voltages spot on. NO bulged caps etc. Replaced the input
attenuators just for good measure.
Like one of these .....
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Studiomaster-700D-Poweramp-350w-350w-RMS_W0QQitemZ320289418706QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item320289418706&_trkparms=72%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
It cost £56 ! ( $110) for an amp that delivers 2 x 200W into 8 ohms
(it's going to be an HF compression driver amp) with 0.008% THD.
Bargains like these are to be found all over the place.
It'll easily work well for another ten years. And PISS over any damn Phonic.
And quite possibly smoke all over them too...

geoff
Eeyore
2008-08-26 02:23:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by geoff
Post by Eeyore
Post by liquidator
You don't go a lot into what your need are. But IMHO a used quality
amp would be peferable to a new Phonic.
Just bought for the Horn http://thehorn.co.uk/ (Music Pub of the Year 2008)
A Studiomaster (one of my own designs) 700D. Built in Feb 1998. A
quick internal examination showed impeccable internal condition and
all test voltages spot on. NO bulged caps etc. Replaced the input
attenuators just for good measure.
Like one of these .....
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Studiomaster-700D-Poweramp-350w-350w-RMS_W0QQitemZ320289418706QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item320289418706&_trkparms=72%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
It cost £56 ! ( $110) for an amp that delivers 2 x 200W into 8 ohms
(it's going to be an HF compression driver amp) with 0.008% THD.
Bargains like these are to be found all over the place.
It'll easily work well for another ten years. And PISS over any damn Phonic.
And quite possibly smoke all over them too...
IDIOT>
liquidator
2008-08-26 17:02:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eeyore
Post by geoff
Post by Eeyore
Post by liquidator
You don't go a lot into what your need are. But IMHO a used quality
amp would be peferable to a new Phonic.
Just bought for the Horn http://thehorn.co.uk/ (Music Pub of the Year 2008)
A Studiomaster (one of my own designs) 700D. Built in Feb 1998. A
quick internal examination showed impeccable internal condition and
all test voltages spot on. NO bulged caps etc. Replaced the input
attenuators just for good measure.
Like one of these .....
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Studiomaster-700D-Poweramp-350w-350w-RMS_W0QQitemZ3202
89418706QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item320289418706&_trkparms=72%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C66
%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
Post by Eeyore
Post by geoff
Post by Eeyore
It cost £56 ! ( $110) for an amp that delivers 2 x 200W into 8 ohms
(it's going to be an HF compression driver amp) with 0.008% THD.
Bargains like these are to be found all over the place.
It'll easily work well for another ten years. And PISS over any damn Phonic.
And quite possibly smoke all over them too...
IDIOT>
Having been inside several Phonic pieces, they are utter junk.

Geoff had identified himself as having a very low need level. If that's all
he needs, fine for him. My issue is him coming on here recommend it to
serious users.
Eeyore
2008-08-26 21:01:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eeyore
Post by Eeyore
Post by geoff
Post by Eeyore
Post by liquidator
You don't go a lot into what your need are. But IMHO a used quality
amp would be peferable to a new Phonic.
Just bought for the Horn http://thehorn.co.uk/ (Music Pub of the Year 2008)
A Studiomaster (one of my own designs) 700D. Built in Feb 1998. A
quick internal examination showed impeccable internal condition and
all test voltages spot on. NO bulged caps etc. Replaced the input
attenuators just for good measure.
Like one of these .....
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Studiomaster-700D-Poweramp-350w-350w-RMS_W0QQitemZ3202
89418706QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item320289418706&_trkparms=72%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C66
%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
Post by Eeyore
Post by geoff
Post by Eeyore
It cost £56 ! ( $110) for an amp that delivers 2 x 200W into 8 ohms
(it's going to be an HF compression driver amp) with 0.008% THD.
Bargains like these are to be found all over the place.
It'll easily work well for another ten years. And PISS over any damn Phonic.
And quite possibly smoke all over them too...
IDIOT>
Having been inside several Phonic pieces, they are utter junk.
I won't remotely disagree with you there.
Post by Eeyore
Geoff had identified himself as having a very low need level. If that's all
he needs, fine for him. My issue is him coming on here recommend it to
serious users.
Geoff's problem is that (almost) all the Studiomaster gear he received was made
by the cretins in India. Hence a high failure rate. He was criticising my
designs, not Phonic's.

There was never anything orong with my designs other than we expected them to be
made on CAD tooling. Which the Indians didn't have. Result ? Disaster.

I could write a damn book about it !


Graham
geoff
2008-08-26 22:30:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eeyore
Geoff's problem is that (almost) all the Studiomaster gear he
received was made by the cretins in India. Hence a high failure rate.
He was criticising my designs, not Phonic's.
Not criticising the 'designs' per se, and the India thing I acknowledged
;-)
Post by Eeyore
There was never anything orong with my designs other than we expected
them to be made on CAD tooling. Which the Indians didn't have. Result
? Disaster.
I could write a damn book about it !
I would love to hear specific specifics especially on the power amps.

Did they do the little mixers too - whats up with the caps that keep dying
in the +/-/between 17v thang ? And the exploding 4560s(?) that ooze white
crud ( fakes ?) . Did they (like Mackie) source the separate halves of the
ribbon connectors from different suppliers ?

geoff
Eeyore
2008-08-26 23:54:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by geoff
Post by Eeyore
Geoff's problem is that (almost) all the Studiomaster gear he
received was made by the cretins in India. Hence a high failure rate.
He was criticising my designs, not Phonic's.
Not criticising the 'designs' per se, and the India thing I acknowledged
;-)
Post by Eeyore
There was never anything orong with my designs other than we expected
them to be made on CAD tooling. Which the Indians didn't have. Result
? Disaster.
I could write a damn book about it !
I would love to hear specific specifics especially on the power amps.
Like I said I could write a book about it. I'm not in the mood now but keep
reminding me and I'll tell you WTF they were up to. It's a saga and a half. In
the end I KNEW everything they were doing wrong (and it took time to find out
but we weren't stupid) but the Directors were incapable of dealing with it.
Post by geoff
Did they do the little mixers too
They did.
Post by geoff
- whats up with the caps that keep dying in the +/-/between 17v thang ?
MLCs ? That's never been 100% clear. Components not meeting spec ? There's a
lot of interesting stuff about that. Certainly not unique to us. In the UK we
substituted polyester parts.
Post by geoff
And the exploding 4560s(?) that ooze white crud ( fakes ?) .
Never saw one of those.
Post by geoff
Did they (like Mackie) source the separate halves of the
ribbon connectors from different suppliers ?
I wouldn't put it past them but AFAIK we never had any ribbon cable problems. I
do know they sourced certain *other* connectors from various sources which
didn't help. Clueless twats !

Graham
geoff
2008-08-26 22:24:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by liquidator
Having been inside several Phonic pieces, they are utter junk.
Geoff had identified himself as having a very low need level. If
that's all he needs, fine for him. My issue is him coming on here
recommend it to serious users.
Thanks. If users were that 'serious' then they would not be considering
'economy' gear in the first place.

Having been inside several Phonics myself ( broken pots, and once a dry
joint) I say that they are no more junky than most electronic gear these
days, and a lot less than some. Or maybe I just saw the only 'non-junk'
units that exist.

I do own 4 ( or is it 5 ? ) little Alto mixers ( camprable to Phonic) that
get a hard time in rehearsal studio and hire-out, and I say they are no
worse that my Mackies or Studiomasters, in that application. Sure, nothing
to get excited about, but adequate.


geoff
liquidator
2008-08-27 00:29:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by geoff
Post by liquidator
Having been inside several Phonic pieces, they are utter junk.
Geoff had identified himself as having a very low need level. If
that's all he needs, fine for him. My issue is him coming on here
recommend it to serious users.
Thanks. If users were that 'serious' then they would not be considering
'economy' gear in the first place.
Having been inside several Phonics myself ( broken pots, and once a dry
joint) I say that they are no more junky than most electronic gear these
days, and a lot less than some. Or maybe I just saw the only 'non-junk'
units that exist.
I do own 4 ( or is it 5 ? ) little Alto mixers ( camprable to Phonic)
that
Post by geoff
get a hard time in rehearsal studio and hire-out, and I say they are no
worse that my Mackies or Studiomasters, in that application. Sure, nothing
to get excited about, but adequate.
geoff
Most people in this group don't use cheap Mackies or old India made
Studiomasters. I understand what you are saying, and yes, for beginners the
stuff is no worse. Cheap gear is pretty much cheap- read "disposable".

On the other hand it is my policy to encourage people to buy better quality
used gear, rather than disposable stuff.

Regardless- research your purchase. I just disagree with recommending Phonic
here- it is simply not adequate for many,
Eeyore
2008-08-27 11:55:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by liquidator
Post by geoff
Post by liquidator
Having been inside several Phonic pieces, they are utter junk.
Geoff had identified himself as having a very low need level. If
that's all he needs, fine for him. My issue is him coming on here
recommend it to serious users.
Thanks. If users were that 'serious' then they would not be considering
'economy' gear in the first place.
Having been inside several Phonics myself ( broken pots, and once a dry
joint) I say that they are no more junky than most electronic gear these
days, and a lot less than some. Or maybe I just saw the only 'non-junk'
units that exist.
I do own 4 ( or is it 5 ? ) little Alto mixers ( camprable to Phonic)
that get a hard time in rehearsal studio and hire-out, and I say they are no
worse that my Mackies or Studiomasters, in that application. Sure, nothing
to get excited about, but adequate.
Most people in this group don't use cheap Mackies or old India made
Studiomasters. I understand what you are saying, and yes, for beginners the
stuff is no worse. Cheap gear is pretty much cheap- read "disposable".
Well to defend the old (even India made) Studiomaster gear, at least it still
had a pcb per channel instead of a single SMT pcb, so servicability is heck of a
lot better.

Graham
liquidator
2008-08-27 13:13:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by geoff
Thanks. If users were that 'serious' then they would not be considering
'economy' gear in the first place.
Unless of course no one ever pointed out that it was junk to them. Beginners
can be quite serious but just not know.

As I said, I advocate buying used better gear over low end junk.

My only issue is you recommending crap to others. You simply don't know
their needs, and recommending junk doesn't teach anyone the difference
between good and bad gear.


Most Phonic is junk. Alto, maybe slightly better, I consider Sekaku who
makes Alto a grade above Phonic, but still in the basement.

Why is it so important for you to defend Phonic anyway? Just to prove you
are right?
Eeyore
2008-08-27 20:55:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by liquidator
As I said, I advocate buying used better gear over low end junk.
Funnily enough, that's how I started. Back around 1974 I and my colleagues
picked up 4 EV Sentry IV bins for £100 each ! And they'd only done one tour with
Strawbs (anyone remember them ?). Strawbs weren't impressed because were using
them them with crappy WEM amps that were a total mismatch to the cabinet. And
probably using the passive crossover too.

When EV discontinued the Sentry IV cab they were over £1000 ea and that's
several decades ago ! Having 4 was lovely because they coupled beautifully
giving us a low end that today you only get with subs.

We also picked up a couple of the matching radials with 1823M drivers too.

I bi-amped them and used appropriately rated amps to extract the best results.
My, were people impressed ! I recall one comment (we used to DJ too) and that
was "that's the loudest hi-fi I've EVER heard".

For well over a decade on that purchase alone more or less we were considered
the besr PA hire co in the local area. Did plenty of London stuff too including
a band's residency at the original Marquee club.

For the top end I acquired through friends some ex-ELP (Emerson Lake and Palmer)
Vitavox S2As IIRC - not widely known about ( awesome drivers - almost make most
JBLs look silly) with the biggest Alnico magnets you ever saw. It was an S2 with
an S3 aluminium diaphragm. Now they were crisp and I bought the slot diffraction
horns to go with them. They sizzled nicely.


Graham
Ron(UK)
2008-08-28 08:04:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eeyore
Funnily enough, that's how I started. Back around 1974 I and my colleagues
picked up 4 EV Sentry IV bins for £100 each ! And they'd only done one tour with
Strawbs (anyone remember them ?).
Aye, I`ve done sound for Strawbs Acoustic, and we had electric Strawbs
at our venue last season when they brought along their own engineer.
Sadly, Daves' voice isnt what it once was and the harmonies were poor,
but still a grand bunch of folk and a pleasure to work with.
Post by Eeyore
Strawbs weren't impressed because were using
them them with crappy WEM amps that were a total mismatch to the cabinet. And
probably using the passive crossover too.
That`s all most of us had in those days, I had about 10 of those PA100
'white noise generators'! They were buggers to repair.

Ron(UK)
Eeyore
2008-08-28 09:41:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ron(UK)
Post by Eeyore
Funnily enough, that's how I started. Back around 1974 I and my colleagues
picked up 4 EV Sentry IV bins for £100 each ! And they'd only done one tour with
Strawbs (anyone remember them ?).
Aye, I`ve done sound for Strawbs Acoustic, and we had electric Strawbs
at our venue last season when they brought along their own engineer.
Sadly, Daves' voice isnt what it once was and the harmonies were poor,
but still a grand bunch of folk and a pleasure to work with.
Post by Eeyore
Strawbs weren't impressed because were using
them them with crappy WEM amps that were a total mismatch to the cabinet. And
probably using the passive crossover too.
That`s all most of us had in those days, I had about 10 of those PA100
'white noise generators'! They were buggers to repair.
Ah ! I had H-H amps already. 2 secondhand TPA50s which we used for the radials and 2 x
new TPA100Ds which were a fair match to the Sentry IVs.

And we also had *stage monitors* ! Started off with 2 4x12 columns than I got 4
secondhand wedges off the guy who now owns HHB. Comes from 'Half Human Band' whom he
used to do the sound for.


Graham
Peter Larsen
2008-08-28 13:57:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eeyore
For the top end I acquired through friends some ex-ELP (Emerson Lake
and Palmer) Vitavox S2As IIRC - not widely known about ( awesome
drivers - almost make most JBLs look silly) with the biggest Alnico
magnets you ever saw. It was an S2 with an S3 aluminium diaphragm.
Now they were crisp and I bought the slot diffraction horns to go
with them. They sizzled nicely.
I have always wondered why that excellent driver didn't find a place on the
market, didn't they try to sell it?
Post by Eeyore
Graham
Kind regards

Peter Larsen
Eeyore
2008-08-28 22:54:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Larsen
Post by Eeyore
For the top end I acquired through friends some ex-ELP (Emerson Lake
and Palmer) Vitavox S2As IIRC - not widely known about ( awesome
drivers - almost make most JBLs look silly) with the biggest Alnico
magnets you ever saw. It was an S2 with an S3 aluminium diaphragm.
Now they were crisp and I bought the slot diffraction horns to go
with them. They sizzled nicely.
I have always wondered why that excellent driver didn't find a place on the
market, didn't they try to sell it?
I think the firm was too 'old-fashioned' to get into that modern rock and roll
thing. Their major market was big multicells for open-air PA as in genuine
'public address'. The S3 had a ceramic magnet IIRC and was never as good, but a
few people clued up and put S3 diaphragms in S2 bodies. Whether Vitavox
'officially' ever sold it as the S2A I'm not even sure.

Graham
Joe Kotroczo
2008-08-29 07:31:30 UTC
Permalink
On 28/08/08 15:57, in article
Post by Peter Larsen
Post by Eeyore
For the top end I acquired through friends some ex-ELP (Emerson Lake
and Palmer) Vitavox S2As IIRC - not widely known about ( awesome
drivers - almost make most JBLs look silly) with the biggest Alnico
magnets you ever saw. It was an S2 with an S3 aluminium diaphragm.
Now they were crisp and I bought the slot diffraction horns to go
with them. They sizzled nicely.
I have always wondered why that excellent driver didn't find a place on the
market, didn't they try to sell it?
Is that the same Vitavox who manufacture loudspeakers for warships and
submarines?
--
Joe Kotroczo ***@mac.com
Eeyore
2008-08-29 21:17:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Kotroczo
Post by Peter Larsen
Post by Eeyore
For the top end I acquired through friends some ex-ELP (Emerson Lake
and Palmer) Vitavox S2As IIRC - not widely known about ( awesome
drivers - almost make most JBLs look silly) with the biggest Alnico
magnets you ever saw. It was an S2 with an S3 aluminium diaphragm.
Now they were crisp and I bought the slot diffraction horns to go
with them. They sizzled nicely.
I have always wondered why that excellent driver didn't find a place on the
market, didn't they try to sell it?
Is that the same Vitavox who manufacture loudspeakers for warships and
submarines?
Isn't the company dead now ? I dare say they would have done along with Tannoy.
Over here, once upon a time Tannoy was synonymous with 'PA'.

Such as "I'll talk to them on the Tannoy".

Graham
Ron(UK)
2008-08-30 09:09:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eeyore
Post by Joe Kotroczo
Post by Peter Larsen
Post by Eeyore
For the top end I acquired through friends some ex-ELP (Emerson Lake
and Palmer) Vitavox S2As IIRC - not widely known about ( awesome
drivers - almost make most JBLs look silly) with the biggest Alnico
magnets you ever saw. It was an S2 with an S3 aluminium diaphragm.
Now they were crisp and I bought the slot diffraction horns to go
with them. They sizzled nicely.
I have always wondered why that excellent driver didn't find a place on the
market, didn't they try to sell it?
Is that the same Vitavox who manufacture loudspeakers for warships and
submarines?
Isn't the company dead now ? I dare say they would have done along with Tannoy.
Over here, once upon a time Tannoy was synonymous with 'PA'.
Such as "I'll talk to them on the Tannoy".
I still get people phoning up wanting to hire a tannoy system for their
sports day!

Ron(UK)
Joe Kotroczo
2008-08-30 09:16:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eeyore
Post by Joe Kotroczo
Post by Peter Larsen
Post by Eeyore
For the top end I acquired through friends some ex-ELP (Emerson Lake
and Palmer) Vitavox S2As IIRC - not widely known about ( awesome
drivers - almost make most JBLs look silly) with the biggest Alnico
magnets you ever saw. It was an S2 with an S3 aluminium diaphragm.
Now they were crisp and I bought the slot diffraction horns to go
with them. They sizzled nicely.
I have always wondered why that excellent driver didn't find a place on the
market, didn't they try to sell it?
Is that the same Vitavox who manufacture loudspeakers for warships and
submarines?
Isn't the company dead now ?
Doesn't look that way: http://www.vitavox-sound.com/
Post by Eeyore
I dare say they would have done along with Tannoy. Over here, once upon a time
Tannoy was synonymous with 'PA'.
Tannoy still makes PA systems:
http://www.tannoy-speakers.com/s.php?section=Professional&sub=1
--
Joe Kotroczo ***@mac.com
Eeyore
2008-08-30 11:11:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Kotroczo
Post by Eeyore
Post by Joe Kotroczo
Post by Peter Larsen
Post by Eeyore
For the top end I acquired through friends some ex-ELP (Emerson Lake
and Palmer) Vitavox S2As IIRC - not widely known about ( awesome
drivers - almost make most JBLs look silly) with the biggest Alnico
magnets you ever saw. It was an S2 with an S3 aluminium diaphragm.
Now they were crisp and I bought the slot diffraction horns to go
with them. They sizzled nicely.
I have always wondered why that excellent driver didn't find a place on the
market, didn't they try to sell it?
Is that the same Vitavox who manufacture loudspeakers for warships and
submarines?
Isn't the company dead now ?
Doesn't look that way: http://www.vitavox-sound.com/
Fancy that ! I am surprised.

Grahama

liquidator
2008-08-28 20:59:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eeyore
Post by liquidator
As I said, I advocate buying used better gear over low end junk.
Funnily enough, that's how I started. Back around 1974 I and my colleagues
picked up 4 EV Sentry IV bins for £100 each ! And they'd only done one tour with
Strawbs (anyone remember them ?). Strawbs weren't impressed because were using
them them with crappy WEM amps that were a total mismatch to the cabinet. And
probably using the passive crossover too.
When EV discontinued the Sentry IV cab they were over £1000 ea and that's
several decades ago ! Having 4 was lovely because they coupled beautifully
giving us a low end that today you only get with subs.
We also picked up a couple of the matching radials with 1823M drivers too.
I bi-amped them and used appropriately rated amps to extract the best results.
My, were people impressed ! I recall one comment (we used to DJ too) and that
was "that's the loudest hi-fi I've EVER heard".
For well over a decade on that purchase alone more or less we were considered
the besr PA hire co in the local area. Did plenty of London stuff too including
a band's residency at the original Marquee club.
For the top end I acquired through friends some ex-ELP (Emerson Lake and Palmer)
Vitavox S2As IIRC - not widely known about ( awesome drivers - almost make most
JBLs look silly) with the biggest Alnico magnets you ever saw. It was an S2 with
an S3 aluminium diaphragm. Now they were crisp and I bought the slot diffraction
horns to go with them. They sizzled nicely.
Graham
For those who don't know Vitavox

http://website.lineone.net/~empson/S2.html

There were persistent rumors about somebody had bought the tooling and
making new ones...but I have never heard for sure.

BTW I think magnet wise the Altec 288 G and H have it beat, they weigh some
7 pounds more. The 288H was one of the best drivers ever made but with that
much Alnico in it it production cost too much.
Eeyore
2008-08-28 23:10:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eeyore
For the top end I acquired through friends some ex-ELP (Emerson Lake and
Palmer) Vitavox S2As IIRC - not widely known about ( awesome drivers -
almost > make most JBLs look silly) with the biggest Alnico magnets you ever
saw. It was an
Post by Eeyore
S2 with an S3 aluminium diaphragm. Now they were crisp and I bought the slot
diffraction horns to go with them. They sizzled nicely.
For those who don't know Vitavox
http://website.lineone.net/~empson/S2.html
There were persistent rumors about somebody had bought the tooling and
making new ones...but I have never heard for sure.
BTW I think magnet wise the Altec 288 G and H have it beat, they weigh some
7 pounds more. The 288H was one of the best drivers ever made but with that
much Alnico in it it production cost too much.
You have to laugh at them claiming only 10W power handling from a 3 inch coil.
I've seen modern drivers claim lots more from little more than 1 inch coils.
Better adhesives perhaps. That might be an advantage with the S3 diaphragm too.

Thanks for the link too.

The Sentry IV drivers used alnico magnets too. wouldn't surprise me if the
1823M/1824 did too.

Graham
liquidator
2008-08-29 00:19:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eeyore
Post by Eeyore
For the top end I acquired through friends some ex-ELP (Emerson Lake and
Palmer) Vitavox S2As IIRC - not widely known about ( awesome drivers -
almost > make most JBLs look silly) with the biggest Alnico magnets you ever
saw. It was an
Post by Eeyore
S2 with an S3 aluminium diaphragm. Now they were crisp and I bought the slot
diffraction horns to go with them. They sizzled nicely.
For those who don't know Vitavox
http://website.lineone.net/~empson/S2.html
There were persistent rumors about somebody had bought the tooling and
making new ones...but I have never heard for sure.
BTW I think magnet wise the Altec 288 G and H have it beat, they weigh some
7 pounds more. The 288H was one of the best drivers ever made but with that
much Alnico in it it production cost too much.
You have to laugh at them claiming only 10W power handling from a 3 inch coil.
I've seen modern drivers claim lots more from little more than 1 inch coils.
Better adhesives perhaps. That might be an advantage with the S3 diaphragm too.
Thanks for the link too.
The Sentry IV drivers used alnico magnets too. wouldn't surprise me if the
1823M/1824 did too.
Graham
1823 and M used Alnico, replaced by 1824 and M ceramic.

Didn't care for the 1823 and 4.

For an El Cheapo the 1829 is much better.

Goes up about an octave higher. So does the old Gollehon 4660 which I doubt
you ever saw over there. It blew the 1823/4 away- sounde better, better
response, and about 3 dB more efficient.

BTW lots aren't even aware of the revamped Altec Alnico. They only were made
for a couple years.

They doubled the Alnico to 6.4 pounds- and that is not structure. Here is a
link to the "G"

H is same but revamped phase plug.

These were only rated 20 watts. These Altecs- not the earlier 288 C and D
models - are often called the poor man's TAD.

In Japan you could probably get killed over a pair of these. I think the
set I sold about a year ago went for $1400.
liquidator
2008-08-29 00:21:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eeyore
Post by Eeyore
Post by Eeyore
For the top end I acquired through friends some ex-ELP (Emerson Lake
and
Post by Eeyore
Post by Eeyore
Palmer) Vitavox S2As IIRC - not widely known about ( awesome drivers -
almost > make most JBLs look silly) with the biggest Alnico magnets
you
Post by Eeyore
ever
Post by Eeyore
saw. It was an
Post by Eeyore
S2 with an S3 aluminium diaphragm. Now they were crisp and I bought
the slot
Post by Eeyore
Post by Eeyore
diffraction horns to go with them. They sizzled nicely.
For those who don't know Vitavox
http://website.lineone.net/~empson/S2.html
There were persistent rumors about somebody had bought the tooling and
making new ones...but I have never heard for sure.
BTW I think magnet wise the Altec 288 G and H have it beat, they weigh
some
Post by Eeyore
7 pounds more. The 288H was one of the best drivers ever made but with
that
Post by Eeyore
much Alnico in it it production cost too much.
You have to laugh at them claiming only 10W power handling from a 3 inch
coil.
Post by Eeyore
I've seen modern drivers claim lots more from little more than 1 inch
coils.
Post by Eeyore
Better adhesives perhaps. That might be an advantage with the S3
diaphragm
Post by Eeyore
too.
Post by Eeyore
Thanks for the link too.
The Sentry IV drivers used alnico magnets too. wouldn't surprise me if the
1823M/1824 did too.
Graham
1823 and M used Alnico, replaced by 1824 and M ceramic.
Didn't care for the 1823 and 4.
For an El Cheapo the 1829 is much better.
Goes up about an octave higher. So does the old Gollehon 4660 which I doubt
you ever saw over there. It blew the 1823/4 away- sounde better, better
response, and about 3 dB more efficient.
BTW lots aren't even aware of the revamped Altec Alnico. They only were made
for a couple years.
They doubled the Alnico to 6.4 pounds- and that is not structure. Here is a
link to the "G"
H is same but revamped phase plug.
These were only rated 20 watts. These Altecs- not the earlier 288 C and D
models - are often called the poor man's TAD.
In Japan you could probably get killed over a pair of these. I think the
set I sold about a year ago went for $1400.
Sorry, short one click.

http://www.voiceofthetheatre.com/288G.th.htm
Eeyore
2008-08-29 01:33:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by liquidator
Sorry, short one click.
http://www.voiceofthetheatre.com/288G.th.htm
Curiously similarly looking in some ways.

Graham
Eeyore
2008-08-29 01:32:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by liquidator
1823 and M used Alnico, replaced by 1824 and M ceramic.
Didn't care for the 1823 and 4.
For an El Cheapo the 1829 is much better.
As used in the Eliminator IIRC.

But nowhere near the power handling. 80W continuous for the 1823M. Our 1823Ms
were actually 'warm' on the heatsink fins after many a gig. Only reason I got an
1824 too was that one puny useless punk band thought it would be funny to steal
one. I knew their manager and it got replaced with an 1824 PDQ. I ought to have
demanded a matched pair really !
Post by liquidator
Goes up about an octave higher. So does the old Gollehon 4660 which I doubt
you ever saw over there. It blew the 1823/4 away- sounde better, better
response, and about 3 dB more efficient.
Ah, but I rolled in the S2As @ 4kHz. Never even heard of Gollehon. Those 1823's
weren't exactly inefficient though.
Post by liquidator
BTW lots aren't even aware of the revamped Altec Alnico. They only were made
for a couple years.
They doubled the Alnico to 6.4 pounds- and that is not structure. Here is a
link to the "G"
H is same but revamped phase plug.
These were only rated 20 watts. These Altecs- not the earlier 288 C and D
models - are often called the poor man's TAD.
In Japan you could probably get killed over a pair of these. I think the
set I sold about a year ago went for $1400.
Altec were never big over here for whatever reason.

Graham
liquidator
2008-08-29 04:53:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eeyore
Post by liquidator
1823 and M used Alnico, replaced by 1824 and M ceramic.
Didn't care for the 1823 and 4.
For an El Cheapo the 1829 is much better.
As used in the Eliminator IIRC.
But nowhere near the power handling. 80W continuous for the 1823M. Our 1823Ms
were actually 'warm' on the heatsink fins after many a gig. Only reason I got an
1824 too was that one puny useless punk band thought it would be funny to steal
one. I knew their manager and it got replaced with an 1824 PDQ. I ought to have
demanded a matched pair really !
Post by liquidator
Goes up about an octave higher. So does the old Gollehon 4660 which I doubt
you ever saw over there. It blew the 1823/4 away- sounde better, better
response, and about 3 dB more efficient.
weren't exactly inefficient though.
Post by liquidator
BTW lots aren't even aware of the revamped Altec Alnico. They only were made
for a couple years.
They doubled the Alnico to 6.4 pounds- and that is not structure. Here is a
link to the "G"
H is same but revamped phase plug.
These were only rated 20 watts. These Altecs- not the earlier 288 C and D
models - are often called the poor man's TAD.
In Japan you could probably get killed over a pair of these. I think the
set I sold about a year ago went for $1400.
Altec were never big over here for whatever reason.
Graham
Bear in mind the 1829 was rated 60 watts from 300 up.

Would handle every bit as much. EV rated it to 12k in their dreams. Really
maybe 6 or 7, the 1824M on the other hand had much less upper mid..

Community built tons of touring systems with the 1829. They agreed with me-
to the point of making a special RH-90 to use the oddball 1.08 inch throat
the thing has. Community, myself, and another company were buying together
so we could get EV's 100 quantity discount.

Early I used 1.4 inch horns with the Altec 1 to 1.4 adapter machined to
fit. The cabinet shop we had was next to a machine shop- the guys did all
sorts of trades with us. Some guys just ran with the throat mismatch into a
standard one incher. The 1824 series only had a 7/8" inch throat.


The Gollehon didn't handle the power the 1824M did, but was decent
sounding, and only about 40 bucks dealer cost- incredible deal in the 70's.
They built them in a loft up in Michigan.

The Eliminator 2 was an oddity. Were dirt cheap and sounded OK, but never
liked them. Could never understand the concept of turning a diffraction horn
the wrong way.

We had half a dozen Vocal Bastards with Eliminator 2's that went out every
weekend. Easy to use and impossible to blow. We made a TON renting that
junk. I cringe just thinking about it.
geoff
2008-08-27 22:18:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by liquidator
Post by geoff
Thanks. If users were that 'serious' then they would not be
considering 'economy' gear in the first place.
Most Phonic is junk. Alto, maybe slightly better, I consider Sekaku
who makes Alto a grade above Phonic, but still in the basement.
Why is it so important for you to defend Phonic anyway? Just to prove
you are right?
No. Because the assertion made did not match my experience.

geoff
Joe Kotroczo
2008-08-26 05:01:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by George's ProSound Company
Post by nandan21
What is the difference between lab.gruppen rating its amp on 'max
output power' Crown rating it at 'Guaranteed minimum power in watts'
and Phonic rating it as 'Continuous average output power'? How can you
compare their specs?
you can't
while LG and Crown specs will accurately reflect what ever test load and
distortion they choose to use as test paramaters
though still not directly comparable they will tend twards giving you a idea
of the amps capabilities
They can actually be compared directly: both publish FTC specs (20 Hz - 20
kHz with 0.1 THD).

They both also have 1 kHz (EIA) specs but with different THDs (0.1% vs 1%)
Post by George's ProSound Company
the phonic specs will be created in the marketing department
Buried deep inside the Phonic manual, you can also find 20 Hz - 20 kHz at
0.1 THD specs, though they don't mention the word "FTC". And EIA specs.

They are enlightening: for the DMX 1501 which they advertise as a 1500W amp,
the FTC specs are 260W per channel at 8 Ohm and 400W per channel at 4 Ohm.
--
Joe Kotroczo ***@mac.com
Eeyore
2008-08-25 19:35:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by nandan21
What is the difference between lab.gruppen rating its amp on 'max
output power' Crown rating it at 'Guaranteed minimum power in watts'
and Phonic rating it as 'Continuous average output power'? How can you
compare their specs?
Try thowing a coin in the air. Mostly likely they're measured similarly
but comparing a Phonic <spit> to a Lab Gruppen is BIZARRE !

Phonic is cheap unreliable shit.

Graham
geoff
2008-08-25 22:13:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eeyore
Post by nandan21
What is the difference between lab.gruppen rating its amp on 'max
output power' Crown rating it at 'Guaranteed minimum power in watts'
and Phonic rating it as 'Continuous average output power'? How can
you compare their specs?
Try thowing a coin in the air. Mostly likely they're measured
similarly but comparing a Phonic <spit> to a Lab Gruppen is BIZARRE !
Phonic is cheap unreliable shit.
I've always had good luck with Phonic and Alto ( powered speakers, powered
mixers, mixers).

I've got a cupboard with 10 charred and burned Studiomasters. Yes, they
were doubtlessly from the India era.

geoff
Eeyore
2008-08-26 02:24:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by geoff
I've got a cupboard with 10 charred and burned Studiomasters. Yes, they
were doubtlessly from the India era.
They killed the company. Almost every D series predates Indian manufacture and
this one certainly does. All neat, tidy and clean inside.

Graham
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