Ringing out the system

[Andy & Kim]

Could somebody talk me thought the correct way to ring out the sound system.
I have seen it mentioned on this group but would be interested to know how
to do it correctly.

Andy

[Gordon 101]

Post by Andy & Kim
Could somebody talk me thought the correct way to ring out the sound system.
I have seen it mentioned on this group but would be interested to know how
to do it correctly.
Andy

Hi Andy

I believe that the ringing refers to the point just before runaway
feedback.

If you leave some mic's open and have a sound source of some type your
in business.

As you increase the levels different frequencies will start to ring or
feedback. These can be attenuated.

Many approaches can work. In a club I often bring a vocal mic to the
board and use my own voice to start. If you use a noise generator in
setup you should do it with the mics open if only to have a look.

Any mic whose level approaches feedback can be rung separately and
together for monitors or mains. I like to bring every mic up (even with
no input) to hear how it responds at volume extremes.
Often monitors are rung with no input.
It is very common to have mics ringing at a low level (or low freq.)
that can be easy to miss during the gig.

Don't be afraid to ring a mic during the sound check. Try bringing up
tom tom's, unused vocal mic's etc. to see what they sound like.
Not recommended, but even at the gig I have often maxed a few strips
to isolate a low drone or other problem. Just be quick.

If you use compressors ringing out can be even more critical.
Particularly on kick drum.

I have seen some use a 31 band eq. and individually boost each freq.
to the point of ringing. I don't think this is a good idea, but?

"In the old days", before multi band eq.'s., this meant a bag of chokes
and capacitors to 'remove' the offending freq.'s.
FYI my first board had rotary pots instead of faders. But it had huge
knobs. ;-)

Gordo

[Carey D]

Post by Gordon 101
I have seen some use a 31 band eq. and individually boost each freq.
to the point of ringing. I don't think this is a good idea, but?

This technique can work quite well as long as you have a steady and
quick hand on the EQ sliders. Here's the deal:

Do this before sound check, and tell anyone in the room what you are
about to do. Start with the monitor graphic EQ flat. You have a vocal
mic open, and are sending it to the nearest monitor wedge. You raise
the monitor level until you just start to hear ringing (feedback). Pull
back the monitor level just a touch until the ringing stops. Now you
need to pull back the EQ band of that frequency so you can raise the
monitor level and get some more GBF (gain before feedback). You may be
familiar enough to know which frequency is ringing, but if you are not
sure you can use the following method:

Slowly raise each EQ slider until ringing just starts, then pull it
back flat. Do that for each frequency band in the range you suspect.
Make a mental note of how much each slider needed to move. Go back to
the most sensitive band, the one whose slider you needed to raise the
least before ringing started. That should be closest to the frequency
you first heard ring. Now pull it back a few dB below centre. Next,
raise the monitor level again until ringing starts. This is likely to
be at a different frequency. Repeat the above procedure to find the
most sensitive band and then cut it a few dB. To avoid chopping up the
sound too much you should do this for no more than three ringing
frequencies. You should find that you can now increase the monitor gain
quite a few dB above your starting point, and that several frequencies
may start to ring together, a good sign as it proves you have ironed
out the dominant ring frequencies.

This technique is very useful in theatre stage miking, but not always
reliable in close miked rock 'n roll. Things change dramatically when
the band take their places for sound check. You get reflections of
their instruments, clothing and bodies, and often your carefully placed
mic gets whipped off its stand and danced around right in front of the
speakers...

IMO a better method is as follows:

Before sound check, get your number two to help on stage. Get him to
speak enthusiastically into the mic, the usual "Test, One Two, Yeah,
Yeah Yeah...". With the EQ flat, raise the monitor level and ask him
what it sounds like. He may ask for changes to the level or frequency
response to make it more intelligible or get rid of some 'boom', 'mud',
'honk' and so on. Once you are both happy with the level and tone you
should check the available GBF. Do this by raising the monitor level
further until the ringing just starts. Then repeat the previous
procedure to find the offending band on the EQ. Test this with the mic
held and moved as it is likely to be during the show. For example, cup
the capsule with the hand if the singer is likely to use this annoying
technique, swing the mic in front of the monitor if he is one of those
types who engage in stage gymnastics or frequent bowing with the mic
held, test with the mic held close to a wide open mouth, a nice little
cavity that can start a ring around 1k or so. In short... cover all the
possibilities before the band take the stage for the sound check, and
then see what gain you have in hand.

In my experience, an intelligible, clean monitor mix means lower stage
level required. That comes down to good mic and speaker choice and
placement, effective use of the graphic EQ, and putting only what is
required into the mix.
Of course, there are many other ways of doing this, and a lot more to
say. Just my take. Regards,
Carey

[Gordon 101]

Post by Carey D
In my experience, an intelligible, clean monitor mix means lower stage
level required. That comes down to good mic and speaker choice and
placement, effective use of the graphic EQ, and putting only what is
required into the mix.
Of course, there are many other ways of doing this, and a lot more to
say. Just my take. Regards,
Carey

Hi Carey

I didn't want to advise too much on monitors, I suck as a monitor man.
Some of the biggest names in music say I have the best excuses though. ;-)

Gordo

[Carey D]

Post by Gordon 101
I didn't want to advise too much on monitors, I suck as a

monitor man.

Post by Gordon 101
Some of the biggest names in music say I have the best excuses though. ;-)
Gordo

Hi Gordo,
Lucky you!

In close miked rock 'n roll, 'ringing out the system' usually involves
working with the stage mics and their nearby monitors. If a feedback
occurs it is usually in a monitor rather than from the house speakers.

In theatre production using distance miking such as floats and rifles,
and omni directional radio mics, 'ringing out the system' is more
likely to involve working with these mics and the house speakers.

In both cases, EQ is involved in sorting potential problems. As Arny
says, a tight notched parametric EQ is a better tool, but for many in
live sound, the graphic EQ is a little easier to understand and use. If
you can learn to use the parametric EQ for feedback control you may
achieve better results with less degradation of the overall signal...
but that's another story.

The term 'ringing' implies feedback control, pushing the system gain to
the point of feedback and then using the EQ to tune out that frequency,
thus providing some more GBF (gain before feedback). As you said you
were not doing monitors I wonder if you perhaps mean 'tuning' rather
than 'ringing' the house system?

A house engineer or visiting BE using a system for the first time
typically sets the house EQ (if accessible) to tune it for best sound.
This may involve using an RTA or better analysis tool such as Smaart,
or quite often simply playing a known CD and using the ears to listen
for speaker deficiencies and room resonances. It is best to identify
problem frequencies by boosting them first to find the worst point,
then cutting them to tune some out. It is a bit like the ringing out
procedure I described in my previous post for the monitors. Once again,
the result should be the cutting of dominant problem frequencies rather
than boostin those that seem to be 'missing'.

Anyway, I hope that helps,
Carey

[Phildo]

Post by Carey D
Slowly raise each EQ slider until ringing just starts, then pull it
back flat. Do that for each frequency band in the range you suspect.
Make a mental note of how much each slider needed to move. Go back to
the most sensitive band, the one whose slider you needed to raise the
least before ringing started. That should be closest to the frequency
you first heard ring. Now pull it back a few dB below centre. Next,
raise the monitor level again until ringing starts. This is likely to
be at a different frequency. Repeat the above procedure to find the
most sensitive band and then cut it a few dB. To avoid chopping up the
sound too much you should do this for no more than three ringing
frequencies. You should find that you can now increase the monitor gain
quite a few dB above your starting point, and that several frequencies
may start to ring together, a good sign as it proves you have ironed
out the dominant ring frequencies.

An easier way to find out the most sensitive frequencies is to use an RTA.
A&H do a good one for laptops from their site. Is always better to train you
ears and there is an excellent feedback trainer available online if you look
in google written by someone on here. Just be sure to use good speakers
hooked up to your PC when you are using it though or you will lose a lot of
the lowest and highest frequencies.

Phildo

[Arny Krueger]

Post by Andy & Kim
Could somebody talk me thought the correct way to ring out the sound
system. I have seen it mentioned on this group but would be interested to
know how to do it correctly.

(1) First using octave or parametric equalizers ensure that your mains and
monitors have relatively smooth and balanced response. Peaky response can
lead to instability at the frequencies with the highest peaks. Simply
elimination or reducing response peaks can sometimes stabilize your system.

(2) If you can, use a parametric equalizer set for a Q of 10 or greater,
with at least 3 or 4 sections, to null out ringing in each path that has
problems.

(3) If you can, have limiters in your amplifier chain to control the maximum
amplitude of ringing to some reasonable level, to protect your speakers and
your ears, and make the procedure as easy as possible.

(4) Play some music that is like the music that is generally played with the
system at a modest level in order to speed the triggering of the ringing.
Sometimes it can take a while for ringing to build to the point where you
notice it. Playing music with energy at the frequency of the ringing speeds
the build up of energy.

(5) Nulling out ringing can damage the sound quality of your system. To
minimize this damage, first notch out any ringing due to one or more
monitors by putting an equalizer in the path of each monitor or at least the
monitors that you sense are causing the most problems with ringing.

Increase the gain in each monitor path you want to ring out until ringing
starts, and then tune the frequency of a notch from an equalizer section
that has not yet been used, to eliminate ringing at the highest gain you
intend to use in that path, with 3-5 or up to 10 dB added for a safety
margin. You may notch out ringing at some frequency at a lower gain
setting, and then increase the gain and improve the tuning of your notch.
When ringing starts at some other frequency, your adjustment of the
equalizer section is complete. Move on to another previously unused section
of the parametric equalizer to stabilize the next frequency that the system
starts ringing at.

Use the shallowest and narrowest notch that is effective. If your notches
are too narrow, you may find that only slightly moving a mic or a monitor or
a performer will cause ringing to start at a nearby frequency.

Repeat adding notches until the stability at the desired gain (with safety
margin) has been obtained, or until 3-4 sections of equalization have been
added to that path. There is some relatively small number of nulls beyond
which significant improvements cannot be achieved for a given path. Move to
the next path.

Once you have stabilized as many monitor paths as neccesary, proceed to your
microphone paths. Finally and only if necessary, stabiliize your mains with
additional equalizers and notches.

This would be the ideal way to ring out a system. If you have a digital
console, you probably have enough parametric equalizers at your disposal to
do a pretty thorough job. If your supply of parametric equalizers is
limited, compromises will be required.

[Bob Urz]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Andy & Kim
Could somebody talk me thought the correct way to ring out the sound
system. I have seen it mentioned on this group but would be interested to
know how to do it correctly.

(1) First using octave or parametric equalizers ensure that your mains and
monitors have relatively smooth and balanced response. Peaky response can
lead to instability at the frequencies with the highest peaks. Simply
elimination or reducing response peaks can sometimes stabilize your system.

What you neglected to mention here is how are you adjusting for "smooth
and balanced" response.? Your ears? Most peoples ears alone don't have
the chops for that. You would need a RTA, Smaart, or such for visual
aid. There are a few "golden ears" that don't use a RTA and equalize
off how a know piece of music sounds. But the guys that can truly
pull this off are few and far between.

Post by Arny Krueger
(2) If you can, use a parametric equalizer set for a Q of 10 or greater,
with at least 3 or 4 sections, to null out ringing in each path that has
problems.
(3) If you can, have limiters in your amplifier chain to control the maximum
amplitude of ringing to some reasonable level, to protect your speakers and
your ears, and make the procedure as easy as possible.
(4) Play some music that is like the music that is generally played with the
system at a modest level in order to speed the triggering of the ringing.
Sometimes it can take a while for ringing to build to the point where you
notice it. Playing music with energy at the frequency of the ringing speeds
the build up of energy.

Most people i know don't use music. NO need to make more noise to
discriminate against. If the system has sufficient gain, bringing
the system up approaching wide open on the faders should make the
system take off. With careful fader application, this can be controlled
so it does not get too loud and out of control ANd once yo get to the
point where you have multiple frequencies ringing at the same time,
that's about the practical limit.

Post by Arny Krueger
(5) Nulling out ringing can damage the sound quality of your system. To
minimize this damage, first notch out any ringing due to one or more
monitors by putting an equalizer in the path of each monitor or at least the
monitors that you sense are causing the most problems with ringing.
Increase the gain in each monitor path you want to ring out until ringing
starts, and then tune the frequency of a notch from an equalizer section
that has not yet been used, to eliminate ringing at the highest gain you
intend to use in that path, with 3-5 or up to 10 dB added for a safety
margin. You may notch out ringing at some frequency at a lower gain
setting, and then increase the gain and improve the tuning of your notch.
When ringing starts at some other frequency, your adjustment of the
equalizer section is complete. Move on to another previously unused section
of the parametric equalizer to stabilize the next frequency that the system
starts ringing at.
Use the shallowest and narrowest notch that is effective. If your notches
are too narrow, you may find that only slightly moving a mic or a monitor or
a performer will cause ringing to start at a nearby frequency.
Repeat adding notches until the stability at the desired gain (with safety
margin) has been obtained, or until 3-4 sections of equalization have been
added to that path. There is some relatively small number of nulls beyond
which significant improvements cannot be achieved for a given path. Move to
the next path.
Once you have stabilized as many monitor paths as neccesary, proceed to your
microphone paths. Finally and only if necessary, stabiliize your mains with
additional equalizers and notches.
This would be the ideal way to ring out a system. If you have a digital
console, you probably have enough parametric equalizers at your disposal to
do a pretty thorough job. If your supply of parametric equalizers is
limited, compromises will be required.

More in the scope of permanent systems, a DFR unit such as a Shure
DFR11/22 inserted into a system greatly simplifies the process. The unit
hooks to a laptop for setup. You bring the gain up to the ring point
and the unit automatically inserts a narrow band notch into the signal
path. You can graphically see this on the laptops display. You then keep
ringing more points until you reach the multiple ring point. The box
does all the work. Then, you can manually go into the GUI and adjust the
points, notch width, and depth if needed. The shures also have 1/3
octaves and parametrics on board for macro EQ (Delay and compressors
too). We use them a lot in permanent installs, but you don't see them
live a lot. But if you have ever been to a show with a clair system, You
have probably heard a Lake contour. They use a wireless lan with a
tablet PC to remotely adjust there EQ's. Very cool.

Bob

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[Arny Krueger]

Post by Bob Urz

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Andy & Kim
Could somebody talk me thought the correct way to ring out the sound
system. I have seen it mentioned on this group but would be interested to
know how to do it correctly.

(1) First using octave or parametric equalizers ensure that your mains
and monitors have relatively smooth and balanced response. Peaky response
can lead to instability at the frequencies with the highest peaks. Simply
elimination or reducing response peaks can sometimes stabilize your system.

What you neglected to mention here is how are you adjusting for "smooth
and balanced" response.?

Not neglectful, just not wanting to post a complete guide to live sound in
one post. Please feel free to start a new thread, Bob.

Post by Bob Urz
Most people i know don't use music. NO need to make more noise to
discriminate against.

Most people I know do, so I guess you need to choose your friends better,
Bob. Futhermore, anybody who can't distinguish a case of ringing from music
playing does not seem like a person with enough chops in live sound to be
worth bothering to try to instruct. After all if you can't hear ringing with
music playing, how do you know that you have a problem?

Post by Bob Urz
More in the scope of permanent systems, a DFR unit such as a Shure DFR11/22
inserted into a system greatly simplifies the process.

Training wheels make it a lot easier to ride a bike as well, Bob. I'm
guessing that you either are too old and clumsy to ride a bike, or your bike
still has training wheels on it.

What you neglected to say Bob is that the DFR 22 (the current model) costs
about a grand and that you're a Shure dealer.

Bob you seem to agree with George Gleason and Phildo that I'm the dumbest
idiot ever to operate a SR system. Yet, I wouldn't personally use a DFR 22
on the grounds that I find ringing out a SR system to be way to easy to do
to be worth paying one large for an automated gizmo when I can do it myself
so easily? What does that say about the people you hang around with, Bob?
;-)

[Ron(UK)]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Bob Urz

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Andy & Kim
Could somebody talk me thought the correct way to ring out the sound
system. I have seen it mentioned on this group but would be interested to
know how to do it correctly.

(1) First using octave or parametric equalizers ensure that your mains
and monitors have relatively smooth and balanced response. Peaky response
can lead to instability at the frequencies with the highest peaks. Simply
elimination or reducing response peaks can sometimes stabilize your system.

What you neglected to mention here is how are you adjusting for "smooth
and balanced" response.?

Not neglectful, just not wanting to post a complete guide to live sound in
one post. Please feel free to start a new thread, Bob.

Post by Bob Urz
Most people i know don't use music. NO need to make more noise to
discriminate against.

Absolutely

Post by Arny Krueger
Most people I know do, so I guess you need to choose your friends better,
Bob. Futhermore, anybody who can't distinguish a case of ringing from music
playing does not seem like a person with enough chops in live sound to be
worth bothering to try to instruct. After all if you can't hear ringing with
music playing, how do you know that you have a problem?

Uncalled for personal remark there.
In many years of working in Sound reinforcement, I`ve never heard any
engineer trying to ring out with music playing through the system.

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Bob Urz
More in the scope of permanent systems, a DFR unit such as a Shure DFR11/22
inserted into a system greatly simplifies the process.

Training wheels make it a lot easier to ride a bike as well, Bob. I'm
guessing that you either are too old and clumsy to ride a bike, or your bike
still has training wheels on it.

Another uncalled for personal remark there.

Post by Arny Krueger
What you neglected to say Bob is that the DFR 22 (the current model) costs
about a grand and that you're a Shure dealer.

One crucial piece of equipment is necessary for ringing out? ears.

Post by Arny Krueger
Bob you seem to agree with George Gleason and Phildo that I'm the dumbest
idiot ever to operate a SR system. Yet, I wouldn't personally use a DFR 22
on the grounds that I find ringing out a SR system to be way to easy to do
to be worth paying one large for an automated gizmo when I can do it myself
so easily? What does that say about the people you hang around with, Bob?
;-)

By your own admission, the events you work on typically have feedback
problems, perhaps your technique for ringing out isn`t working.


Ron (UK)

[Carey D]

Post by Ron(UK)
In many years of working in Sound reinforcement, I`ve never heard any
engineer trying to ring out with music playing through the system.

I think there are two things being discussed here. One is 'ringing
out', the other 'tuning' the system. Playing music is relevant to one,
not the other.

In music PA, it is common to ring out the monitors to get as much gain
as possible before feedback. To do this effectively it is more than
just turning up the mic gain while the stage is quiet. You certainly
don't need to play any music through the system, but it is important to
have someone on stage talking/shouting/singing into the mic as you
expect the artist to. This excites the mic/monitor speaker into
feedback. Depending on the show you may also want your number two to
cup the mic, swing it in front of the wedges, open your mouth wide in
front of it, walk up to the FOH stacks, and do anything which the
artist is likely to so that you check system stability under expected
show conditions. Having a voice behind the mic also keeps an ear on the
tonal quality of the monitor so that it is still intelligible and
listenable after the EQ cuts have been made.

Tuning the FOH system is best done with the proper analysis tools,
which although expensive, give the most accurate results. But keep in
mind that many touring engineers will walk in, listen to your system
and make EQ adjustments to taste. This 'tuning' is often done using a
known CD brought along by the engineer. It is common for a house system
to have been properly tuned when it was first installed and to have its
settings locked away, and then to have an additional house graphic
available at the FOH rack for the visiting engineer. After the show,
the house guy simply resets this graphic flat.

Just thought I would try to clarify these two processes.
Regards,
Carey

[Arny Krueger]

Post by Carey D
In music PA, it is common to ring out the monitors to get as much gain
as possible before feedback. To do this effectively it is more than
just turning up the mic gain while the stage is quiet. You certainly
don't need to play any music through the system, but it is important to
have someone on stage talking/shouting/singing into the mic as you
expect the artist to.

There's a number of really serious problems with this sort of thinking. One
of them is that it requires that you have an assistant who does the talking.
Screw you if you ever have to work alone!

The second problem is that it presumes that only speech is involved with the
feedback problems.

Using an assistant works pretty well when all of the instruments are
electronic, but I routinely work with acoustical instruments. For example,
the acoustical istruments for yesterday were less than usual - just a flute,
a string section and a piano.

Ooops! I forgot the pipe organ. Pipe organs are fun to work with because
they get into every mic in the house. It turns out that if I don't consider
the pipe organ, there's a good chance that it will trigger some feedback
during the show, er service.

So Carey, I can take your advice and either have 5 or eight musicians on
stage when I ring out the system, or I can do things my way, which has a
good track record for actually working. Pick one! ;-)

And, if you want to see Carey's advice really fall apart, do SR for drama
involving large groups of performers who have to work with a pre-recorded
track playing through on-stage monitors. I guess Carey would say that all I
need is an assistant and forget about using the demo track of the
performance to help ring out the system.

Carey's ideas would not stand one minute in the harsh light of one of my
days. :-(

I might add that Carey's advice falls apart fast if you understand the
theory of how feedback comes to be. Some good things I learned long ago in
my undergraduate and master's level classes in control system engineering
get demoed for me every time I ring out my system, the last time of which
was last night around 6 pm.

Of course I shouldn't defend my experiences, because Carey is a professional
sound guy and I am just a volunteer who works in a church. He obviously
knows sound in churches so much better than I do! ;-)

[Phildo]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Carey D
In music PA, it is common to ring out the monitors to get as much gain
as possible before feedback. To do this effectively it is more than
just turning up the mic gain while the stage is quiet. You certainly
don't need to play any music through the system, but it is important to
have someone on stage talking/shouting/singing into the mic as you
expect the artist to.

There's a number of really serious problems with this sort of thinking.

Dig dig, dig dig.

Post by Arny Krueger
One of them is that it requires that you have an assistant who does the
talking. Screw you if you ever have to work alone!

In which case you use the other method. Is usually better with 2 people
though bu then what would I know, I've only been a professional engineer for
about 20 years so cannot possibly know more than a wannabe church volunteer
with no appreciable live sound experience. You are talking out of your arse
as usual Arny.

Post by Arny Krueger
The second problem is that it presumes that only speech is involved with
the feedback problems.

No, it just uses speech to find the problem frequencies. Please stop
spouting crap Arny then you wouldn't have people correcting you all the
time. Thanks for admitting you are clueless about professional live sound
though.

Post by Arny Krueger
Using an assistant works pretty well when all of the instruments are
electronic, but I routinely work with acoustical instruments.

Using an assistant works erqually well when using acoustical instruments
Arny but hey, thanks for admitting you know nothing about how to ring out a
system.

Post by Arny Krueger
For example, the acoustical istruments for yesterday were less than
usual - just a flute, a string section and a piano.

Big deal. Should be no problems there at all. Very simple job.

Post by Arny Krueger
Ooops! I forgot the pipe organ. Pipe organs are fun to work with because
they get into every mic in the house. It turns out that if I don't
consider the pipe organ, there's a good chance that it will trigger some
feedback during the show, er service.

This is where mic selection and placement come in to it but hey Arny, thanks
for admitting you have no clue how to use microphones.

Post by Arny Krueger
So Carey, I can take your advice and either have 5 or eight musicians on
stage when I ring out the system, or I can do things my way, which has a
good track record for actually working. Pick one! ;-)

Good track record !?!?!? You record your shows to try to fix feedback for
the next week !!! By your own admission you have feedback problems at every
gig and yet you think you know more than Carey who, aside from being the
head designer at Allen and Heath, is also a VERY well respected sound
engineer with decades of professional experience. Arny, you got it wrong and
are just digging a deeper hole for yourself as usual. Give it up and learn
from your mistakes instead of humiliating yourself yet again.

Post by Arny Krueger
And, if you want to see Carey's advice really fall apart, do SR for drama
involving large groups of performers who have to work with a pre-recorded
track playing through on-stage monitors. I guess Carey would say that all
I need is an assistant and forget about using the demo track of the
performance to help ring out the system.

What the hell are you on about Arny?

Post by Arny Krueger
Carey's ideas would not stand one minute in the harsh light of one of my
days. :-(

Actually Carey would be able to fix a lot of the problemns in one go but
then so would most professional engineers but hey, thanks for admitting to
us all how clueless and inexperienced you are.

Post by Arny Krueger
I might add that Carey's advice falls apart fast if you understand the
theory of how feedback comes to be. Some good things I learned long ago
in my undergraduate and master's level classes in control system
engineering get demoed for me every time I ring out my system, the last
time of which was last night around 6 pm.

This is the same Arny (church volunteer working on the same installed system
a few hours a week) who thinks he knows better than Elton John's monitor
engineer, a company owner who has run a sound company doing big events for
20 years, Ted Nugent's engineer and now the Chief designer from A&H. Talk
about an arrogan (yet clueless) prick.

Post by Arny Krueger
Of course I shouldn't defend my experiences, because Carey is a
professional sound guy and I am just a volunteer who works in a church. He
obviously knows sound in churches so much better than I do! ;-)

No, he knows SOUND better than you do. The laws of physics do not change
just because you go into a building where a load of loonies worship some
imaginary deity. Face it Arny, you made a grade A twat of yourself all over
again.

Phildo

[Carey D]

Post by Arny Krueger
Carey's ideas would not stand one minute in the harsh light of one of my
days. :-(
I might add that Carey's advice falls apart fast if you understand the
theory of how feedback comes to be. Some good things I learned long ago in
my undergraduate and master's level classes in control system engineering
get demoed for me every time I ring out my system, the last time of which
was last night around 6 pm.
Of course I shouldn't defend my experiences, because Carey is a professional
sound guy and I am just a volunteer who works in a church. He obviously
knows sound in churches so much better than I do! ;-)

Wow Arny, good to meet you too :-)

I am a professional console designer and weekend warrior sound guy, so
I don't claim to be better than you. I made it clear in my first post
that the situation is different for close miked bands or distant miking
as in theatre re-inforcement. You are right about the acoustic
instruments, although, mixing folk and world music, I always ring those
mics out with the instruments in place being played during sound check
if possible, reflections off the guitar etc.

I am not sure what type of sound the OP mixes, he did not say. My
'advice' is simply what works for me. It adds to the big stewing pot
here. If someone doesn't like carrots they can leave them and pick out
the parsnips instead. By all means, you spit the carrots out Arny ;-)
Have a great day,
Carey

[Arny Krueger]

Post by Carey D

Post by Arny Krueger
Carey's ideas would not stand one minute in the harsh light of one of my
days. :-(
I might add that Carey's advice falls apart fast if you understand the
theory of how feedback comes to be. Some good things I learned long ago in
my undergraduate and master's level classes in control system engineering
get demoed for me every time I ring out my system, the last time of which
was last night around 6 pm.

I am a professional console designer and weekend warrior sound guy, so
I don't claim to be better than you. I made it clear in my first post
that the situation is different for close miked bands or distant miking
as in theatre re-inforcement. You are right about the acoustic
instruments, although, mixing folk and world music, I always ring those
mics out with the instruments in place being played during sound check
if possible, reflections off the guitar etc.

My point is that the OP's question was "Could somebody talk me thought the
correct way to ring out the sound system." Therefore I felt that the most
general approach would be the right one. Any approach that would work for
only a specific set of circumstances seems like the wrong thing to talk
about in the given situation.

Sorry about the attitude, but just look at the answers from Bob Errors,
Phildo, George, Ron & etc. to see the kind of narrow-minded behavior that
passes for superior wisdom around here.

[George Gleason]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Carey D

Post by Arny Krueger
Carey's ideas would not stand one minute in the harsh light of one of my
days. :-(
I might add that Carey's advice falls apart fast if you understand the
theory of how feedback comes to be. Some good things I learned long

ago

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Carey D

Post by Arny Krueger
in
my undergraduate and master's level classes in control system engineering
get demoed for me every time I ring out my system, the last time of which
was last night around 6 pm.

I am a professional console designer and weekend warrior sound guy, so
I don't claim to be better than you. I made it clear in my first post
that the situation is different for close miked bands or distant miking
as in theatre re-inforcement. You are right about the acoustic
instruments, although, mixing folk and world music, I always ring those
mics out with the instruments in place being played during sound check
if possible, reflections off the guitar etc.

My point is that the OP's question was "Could somebody talk me thought the
correct way to ring out the sound system." Therefore I felt that the most
general approach would be the right one. Any approach that would work for
only a specific set of circumstances seems like the wrong thing to talk
about in the given situation.
Sorry about the attitude, but just look at the answers from Bob Errors,
Phildo, George, Ron & etc. to see the kind of narrow-minded behavior that
passes for superior wisdom around here.

Yup just look at the comments from real working professional
and compare them to a voulenteer who could not get paid to do sound if he
begged(which is what he did to get his position)
working on one system, a installed system, that after more than a year in
place still feedsback
Your a moron arnii
george

[Arny Krueger]

Post by George Gleason
Yup just look at the comments from real working professional
and compare them to a voulenteer who could not get paid to do sound if he
begged(which is what he did to get his position)

That would be not be what I remember, but you know George was there in the
church with me when I was offered the job, so maybe I don't remember things
right. ;-)

Post by George Gleason
working on one system,

That would be not be what I remember, but you know George was there urch
with me ever gig I ever pulled, so maybe I don't remember things right. ;-)

Post by George Gleason
a installed system, that after more than a year in
place still feedsback

That would be not be what I remember, but you know George was there in the
church with me when every time I ran the system, so maybe I don't remember
things right. ;-)

Post by George Gleason
Your a moron arnii

That would be not be what I remember, but you know George was there with me
for every test involving mental and physical performance that I ever took,
so maybe I don't remember things right. ;-)

[George Gleason]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
Yup just look at the comments from real working professional
and compare them to a voulenteer who could not get paid to do sound if he
begged(which is what he did to get his position)

That would be not be what I remember, but you know George was there in the
church with me when I was offered the job, so maybe I don't remember things
right. ;-)

Post by George Gleason
working on one system,

That would be not be what I remember, but you know George was there urch
with me ever gig I ever pulled, so maybe I don't remember things right. ;-)

Post by George Gleason
a installed system, that after more than a year in
place still feedsback

That would be not be what I remember, but you know George was there in the
church with me when every time I ran the system, so maybe I don't remember
things right. ;-)

Post by George Gleason
Your a moron arnii

That would be not be what I remember, but you know George was there with me
for every test involving mental and physical performance that I ever took,
so maybe I don't remember things right. ;-)

arnii from the crap you post I doubt if you remeber to wipe you ass after
dropping a bit of your mind off.
george

[Phildo]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
Yup just look at the comments from real working professional
and compare them to a voulenteer who could not get paid to do sound if he
begged(which is what he did to get his position)

That would be not be what I remember, but you know George was there in the
church with me when I was offered the job, so maybe I don't remember
things right. ;-)

We only have your words to go on Arny and that is what you posted on here.
If it is a lie then it is you that is the liar as we are only repeating your
own words back to you.

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
working on one system,

That would be not be what I remember, but you know George was there urch
with me ever gig I ever pulled, so maybe I don't remember things right. ;-)

You are delusional Arny. Maybe you should go see a doctor?

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
a installed system, that after more than a year in
place still feedsback

That would be not be what I remember, but you know George was there in the
church with me when every time I ran the system, so maybe I don't remember
things right. ;-)

Arny, you just told us these things yourself and now you are denying it? You
tell so many lies you cannot even remember them all yourself.

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
Your a moron arnii

That would be not be what I remember, but you know George was there with
me for every test involving mental and physical performance that I ever
took, so maybe I don't remember things right. ;-)

No Arny, you are in fact a moron. OK, most of this can be put down to your
mental illness but even so, you are a moron nonetheless.

Phildo

[Phildo]

Post by Arny Krueger
My point is that the OP's question was "Could somebody talk me thought the
correct way to ring out the sound system." Therefore I felt that the most
general approach would be the right one. Any approach that would work for
only a specific set of circumstances seems like the wrong thing to talk
about in the given situation.

You talked about YOUR way of doing things, not the best or most corect way.
You were also arrogant enough to try to tell those far more experienced and
knowlegable than yourself that you were right and they were wrong. You made
a twat of yourself yet again.

Post by Arny Krueger
Sorry about the attitude, but just look at the answers from Bob Errors,
Phildo, George, Ron & etc. to see the kind of narrow-minded behavior that
passes for superior wisdom around here.

The only reason you get grief is that you spout crap. If you were to stick
to posting what you know about and act like a normal human being then you
wouldn't have any problems. You have people hating you in every single
usenet newsgroup you have ever posted to. Do you think it is because of a
big anti-Arny conspiracy or could it be that you are a complete prick that
nobody likes? I'll let you figure that one out.

In the meantime you are not the victim here, you are the troublemaker.

Phildo

[Arny Krueger]

Post by Phildo

Post by Arny Krueger
My point is that the OP's question was "Could somebody talk me thought
the correct way to ring out the sound system." Therefore I felt that the
most general approach would be the right one. Any approach that would
work for only a specific set of circumstances seems like the wrong thing
to talk about in the given situation.

You talked about YOUR way of doing things, not the best or most corect way.
You were also arrogant enough to try to tell those far more experienced
and knowlegable than yourself that you were right and they were wrong. You
made a twat of yourself yet again.

As if you're not embarassing yourself in public as you post, Phildo.

Post by Phildo

Post by Arny Krueger
Sorry about the attitude, but just look at the answers from Bob Errors,
Phildo, George, Ron & etc. to see the kind of narrow-minded behavior that
passes for superior wisdom around here.

The only reason you get grief is that you spout crap.

No, I get grief because Bob Errors, Phildo, George, Ron & etc. post crap and
can't admit it when they are doing so. I've tried some of the procedures
they recommend, and they just don't work out that well in real life. Good
enough for relatively easy situations where say, all the instruments are
electronic and all the micing is close. Easy enough on Phildo's ship where
the system was installed and setup in a well-designed room by pros who knew
what they were doing. Goerge does a lot of work outside where feedback
problems can be at a minimum.

[George Gleason]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Phildo

Post by Arny Krueger
My point is that the OP's question was "Could somebody talk me thought
the correct way to ring out the sound system." Therefore I felt that the
most general approach would be the right one. Any approach that would
work for only a specific set of circumstances seems like the wrong thing
to talk about in the given situation.

You talked about YOUR way of doing things, not the best or most corect way.
You were also arrogant enough to try to tell those far more experienced
and knowlegable than yourself that you were right and they were wrong. You
made a twat of yourself yet again.

As if you're not embarassing yourself in public as you post, Phildo.

Post by Phildo

Post by Arny Krueger
Sorry about the attitude, but just look at the answers from Bob Errors,
Phildo, George, Ron & etc. to see the kind of narrow-minded behavior that
passes for superior wisdom around here.

The only reason you get grief is that you spout crap.

No, I get grief because Bob Errors, Phildo, George, Ron & etc. post crap and
can't admit it when they are doing so. I've tried some of the procedures
they recommend, and they just don't work out that well in real life. Good
enough for relatively easy situations where say, all the instruments are
electronic and all the micing is close. Easy enough on Phildo's ship where
the system was installed and setup in a well-designed room by pros who knew
what they were doing. Goerge does a lot of work outside where feedback
problems can be at a minimum.

Correction arnii
I simply do alot of work, inside and out
there is snow on the ground here from mid october to mid may
very limited outdoor work for at least 2/3 of my year

[Arny Krueger]

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Phildo

Post by Arny Krueger
My point is that the OP's question was "Could somebody talk me thought
the correct way to ring out the sound system." Therefore I felt that

the

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Phildo

Post by Arny Krueger
most general approach would be the right one. Any approach that would
work for only a specific set of circumstances seems like the wrong

thing

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Phildo

Post by Arny Krueger
to talk about in the given situation.

You talked about YOUR way of doing things, not the best or most corect way.
You were also arrogant enough to try to tell those far more experienced
and knowlegable than yourself that you were right and they were wrong.

You

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Phildo
made a twat of yourself yet again.

As if you're not embarassing yourself in public as you post, Phildo.

Post by Phildo

Post by Arny Krueger
Sorry about the attitude, but just look at the answers from Bob Errors,
Phildo, George, Ron & etc. to see the kind of narrow-minded behavior

that

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Phildo

Post by Arny Krueger
passes for superior wisdom around here.

The only reason you get grief is that you spout crap.

No, I get grief because Bob Errors, Phildo, George, Ron & etc. post crap

and

Post by Arny Krueger
can't admit it when they are doing so. I've tried some of the procedures
they recommend, and they just don't work out that well in real life. Good
enough for relatively easy situations where say, all the instruments are
electronic and all the micing is close. Easy enough on Phildo's ship where
the system was installed and setup in a well-designed room by pros who

knew

Post by Arny Krueger
what they were doing. Goerge does a lot of work outside where feedback
problems can be at a minimum.

Correction arnii

Not a correction.

Post by George Gleason
I simply do alot of work, inside and out

Judging by your posting habits George, you sit around your home base most of
the time.

[George Gleason]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Phildo

Post by Arny Krueger
My point is that the OP's question was "Could somebody talk me thought
the correct way to ring out the sound system." Therefore I felt that

the

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Phildo

Post by Arny Krueger
most general approach would be the right one. Any approach that would
work for only a specific set of circumstances seems like the wrong

thing

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Phildo

Post by Arny Krueger
to talk about in the given situation.

You talked about YOUR way of doing things, not the best or most

corect

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Phildo
way.
You were also arrogant enough to try to tell those far more experienced
and knowlegable than yourself that you were right and they were wrong.

You

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Phildo
made a twat of yourself yet again.

As if you're not embarassing yourself in public as you post, Phildo.

Post by Phildo

Post by Arny Krueger
Sorry about the attitude, but just look at the answers from Bob Errors,
Phildo, George, Ron & etc. to see the kind of narrow-minded behavior

that

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Phildo

Post by Arny Krueger
passes for superior wisdom around here.

The only reason you get grief is that you spout crap.

No, I get grief because Bob Errors, Phildo, George, Ron & etc. post crap

and

Post by Arny Krueger
can't admit it when they are doing so. I've tried some of the procedures
they recommend, and they just don't work out that well in real life. Good
enough for relatively easy situations where say, all the instruments are
electronic and all the micing is close. Easy enough on Phildo's ship where
the system was installed and setup in a well-designed room by pros who

knew

Post by Arny Krueger
what they were doing. Goerge does a lot of work outside where feedback
problems can be at a minimum.

Correction arnii

Not a correction.

Post by George Gleason
I simply do alot of work, inside and out

Judging by your posting habits George, you sit around your home base most of
the time.

esp monday afternoons arnii
most of my work is nights and weekends
some shop/office chores during the week ut yes I have plenty of off time ,
esp early in the week
I own the company , I decide when I work and when I play
george

[Robert McTigue]

Post by Arny Krueger
My point is that the OP's question was "Could somebody talk me thought the
correct way to ring out the sound system." Therefore I felt that the most
general approach would be the right one. Any approach that would work for
only a specific set of circumstances seems like the wrong thing to talk
about in the given situation.
Sorry about the attitude, but just look at the answers from Bob Errors,
Phildo, George, Ron & etc. to see the kind of narrow-minded behavior that
passes for superior wisdom around here.

Could you please fuck off.

[Arny Krueger]

Post by Robert McTigue

Post by Arny Krueger
My point is that the OP's question was "Could somebody talk me thought
the correct way to ring out the sound system." Therefore I felt that the
most general approach would be the right one. Any approach that would
work for only a specific set of circumstances seems like the wrong thing
to talk about in the given situation.
Sorry about the attitude, but just look at the answers from Bob Errors,
Phildo, George, Ron & etc. to see the kind of narrow-minded behavior that
passes for superior wisdom around here.

Could you please fuck off.

Please explain exactly what you mean by that, Robert.

[Robert McTigue]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Robert McTigue

Post by Arny Krueger
My point is that the OP's question was "Could somebody talk me thought
the correct way to ring out the sound system." Therefore I felt that the
most general approach would be the right one. Any approach that would
work for only a specific set of circumstances seems like the wrong thing
to talk about in the given situation.
Sorry about the attitude, but just look at the answers from Bob Errors,
Phildo, George, Ron & etc. to see the kind of narrow-minded behavior that
passes for superior wisdom around here.

Could you please fuck off.

Please explain exactly what you mean by that, Robert.

Your lack of live sound knowledge in amazing and you keep talking out of
your ass ... so if you could please FUCK OFF.

[Arny Krueger]

Post by Robert McTigue

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Robert McTigue

Post by Arny Krueger
My point is that the OP's question was "Could somebody talk me thought
the correct way to ring out the sound system." Therefore I felt that
the most general approach would be the right one. Any approach that
would work for only a specific set of circumstances seems like the wrong
thing to talk about in the given situation.
Sorry about the attitude, but just look at the answers from Bob Errors,
Phildo, George, Ron & etc. to see the kind of narrow-minded behavior
that passes for superior wisdom around here.

Could you please fuck off.

Please explain exactly what you mean by that, Robert.

Your lack of live sound knowledge in amazing and you keep talking out of
your ass ... so if you could please FUCK OFF.

So Robert, you think that your childish insults and fumble-mouth act is any
kind of a good example of live sound knowlege?

[George Gleason]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Robert McTigue

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Robert McTigue

Post by Arny Krueger
My point is that the OP's question was "Could somebody talk me thought
the correct way to ring out the sound system." Therefore I felt that
the most general approach would be the right one. Any approach that
would work for only a specific set of circumstances seems like the wrong
thing to talk about in the given situation.
Sorry about the attitude, but just look at the answers from Bob Errors,
Phildo, George, Ron & etc. to see the kind of narrow-minded behavior
that passes for superior wisdom around here.

Could you please fuck off.

Please explain exactly what you mean by that, Robert.

Your lack of live sound knowledge in amazing and you keep talking out of
your ass ... so if you could please FUCK OFF.

So Robert, you think that your childish insults and fumble-mouth act is any
kind of a good example of live sound knowlege?

arnii you are offered loads of good solid advice
asking you to please fuck off is just a small bit of it

[Robert McTigue]

Arny Krueger wrote:
r ass ... so if you could please FUCK OFF.

Post by Arny Krueger
So Robert, you think that your childish insults and fumble-mouth act is any
kind of a good example of live sound knowlege?

No not really but I feel better calling a spade a spade .

[Arny Krueger]

Post by Robert McTigue
r ass ... so if you could please FUCK OFF.

Post by Arny Krueger
So Robert, you think that your childish insults and fumble-mouth act is
any kind of a good example of live sound knowlege?

No not really but I feel better calling a spade a spade .

If you call a spade a spade Robert, why aren't you calling Phildo a really
sad puppy? Or do you consider Phildo's behavior to be perfectly normal?

[Robert McTigue]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Robert McTigue
No not really but I feel better calling a spade a spade .

If you call a spade a spade Robert, why aren't you calling Phildo a really
sad puppy? Or do you consider Phildo's behavior to be perfectly normal?

I work with guys like Phil all my life and I think he knows Live Sound
..as far as you ... well you may be an EE as you claim but who gives a
fuck ... this is a Live Sound NG. You just don't seem to know a lot
about Live Sound by what you post. So could you please FUCK OFF

[George Gleason]

Post by Arny Krueger
Of course I shouldn't defend my experiences, because Carey is a professional
sound guy and I am just a volunteer who works in a church. He obviously
knows sound in churches so much better than I do! ;-)

I read you whole post looking for something that made sense
I found it at the end
george

[Arny Krueger]

Post by Ron(UK)
By your own admission, the events you work on typically have feedback
problems,

Not by the time we go live. ;-)

Any other claims have come from proven liars like Phildo and George Gleason.

Of course neither Phildo and George Gleason have clue number one about my
work. Phildo does know the address of my church, but he has only used it to
harass me in the community where I live.

Post by Ron(UK)
perhaps your technique for ringing out isn`t working.

No, I just work in a very tough venue. It's a 50 year-old church that was
designed by a guy who had never designed a live venue before in his life. In
fact, his specialty was residences. It's a fairly horrid-sounding room,
before we do what we do.

The problems I have with feedback come from the only remaining parts of the
system that were put in by professional installers.

I'm quite sure Ron that you'd grow better chops for dealing with feedback if
you spent even just a day where I've live a day or two a week for like the
past 4 years.

I'd love to see you find out what a really challenging venue is like. When I
work almost anyplace else, managing feedback is so easy that I almost feel
like I died and went to heaven. ;-)

[Phildo]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Ron(UK)
By your own admission, the events you work on typically have feedback
problems,

Not by the time we go live. ;-)

No, you said you record them and try to fix them for the next week by
listening to the tape and identifying the frequencies. By the way, thanks
for admitting to everyone you have no idea how feedback happens or how to
stop it.

Post by Arny Krueger
Any other claims have come from proven liars like Phildo and George Gleason.

Actually Arny they came from your own mouth but then you are _the_ proven
liar.

Post by Arny Krueger
Of course neither Phildo and George Gleason have clue number one about my
work.

We can only go by what you tell us here and from that it is pretty obvious
you are completely clueless.

Post by Arny Krueger
Phildo does know the address of my church, but he has only used it to
harass me in the community where I live.

More lies from Arny Kruger.

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Ron(UK)
perhaps your technique for ringing out isn`t working.

No, I just work in a very tough venue. It's a 50 year-old church that was
designed by a guy who had never designed a live venue before in his life.
In fact, his specialty was residences. It's a fairly horrid-sounding room,
before we do what we do.

You've volunteered there for a couple of years. It shouldn't take you that
long to get things right. Us real sound engineers normally get one
soundcheck to get it right and that's if we're luckyu. Just shows us how
clueless you are.

Post by Arny Krueger
The problems I have with feedback come from the only remaining parts of
the system that were put in by professional installers.

Then why haven't you fixed them? Surely the money spent on a multitrack
recording system so you can analyse your mistakes would have been much
better spent on existing problems?

Post by Arny Krueger
I'm quite sure Ron that you'd grow better chops for dealing with feedback
if you spent even just a day where I've live a day or two a week for like
the past 4 years.

I'm sure Ron would have gotten those problems fixed within a few days and
not still be having problems after 4 years. Then again it took at least 4
years of you posting here before you worked out where FOH was so I suppose
your abysmal lack of results is somewhat understandable.

Post by Arny Krueger
I'd love to see you find out what a really challenging venue is like. When
I work almost anyplace else, managing feedback is so easy that I almost
feel like I died and went to heaven. ;-)

Arny, touring engineers have to work difficult venues most nights and they
get it right every night without taking 4 years recording feedback to try
and fix it and still having problems.

Phildo

[Arny Krueger]

Post by Phildo

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Ron(UK)
By your own admission, the events you work on typically have feedback
problems,

Not by the time we go live. ;-)

No, you said you record them and try to fix them for the next week by
listening to the tape and identifying the frequencies. By the way, thanks
for admitting to everyone you have no idea how feedback happens or how to
stop it.

That's all a lie. I rarely get feed back during performance, and if it
happens its usually at a very low level. In those rare cases I shoot it from
the multitrack recordings I make.

I've corrected you in this matter dozens of time Phildo, but as demonstrated
by the dozens of gratuitous insulting posts you made in just the last week,
you're one open blister of a sad case, and there's nothing I can say to make
you stop.

[Phildo]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Phildo

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Ron(UK)
By your own admission, the events you work on typically have feedback
problems,

Not by the time we go live. ;-)

No, you said you record them and try to fix them for the next week by
listening to the tape and identifying the frequencies. By the way, thanks
for admitting to everyone you have no idea how feedback happens or how to
stop it.

That's all a lie.

If that is the case then you are the liar as I'm only repeating what you
yourself told us on here Arny. Make up your mind and stop squirming to try
and stop yourself looking foolish yet again.

Post by Arny Krueger
I rarely get feed back during performance, and if it happens its usually
at a very low level. In those rare cases I shoot it from the multitrack
recordings I make.

That goes against what you've been telling us in this thread in just the
last few minutes. You go on about what a difficult room it is to work in and
how there are major feedback issues you have still niot sorted after 4 years
and now you are trying to tell us everything is hunky-dory. Please make up
your mind and stop bullshitting Arny.

Post by Arny Krueger
I've corrected you in this matter dozens of time Phildo,

I do not need correcting as I am merely repeating your own words back to you
Arny.

Post by Arny Krueger
but as demonstrated by the dozens of gratuitous insulting posts you made
in just the last week, you're one open blister of a sad case, and there's
nothing I can say to make you stop.

I am only pointing out your mistakes. If you didn't make any mistakes and
stopped spouting crap then I wouldn't have to. Of course this doesn't
explain all the other people on here telling you how wrong you are. Are they
all sad cases too or could it in fact be that you are the sad case who likes
to pretend he is a sound engineer but is too mentally ill to ever admit he
is wrong about anything?

Phildo

[George Gleason]

and there's nothing I can say to make

Post by Arny Krueger
you stop.

well you could post only what you know about
not you fantasyn of how difficult mixing on the same installed system in a
nice clean , stable enviroment, working with the same crew is
the reason you can't say anything to get the slams to stop is because you
seem only able to post bullshit and egotistical paranoid crappola
george

[Arny Krueger]

Post by Arny Krueger
and there's nothing I can say to make

Post by Arny Krueger
you stop.

well you could post only what you know about
not you fantasyn

What's a fantasyn, George?

[Ron(UK)]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Ron(UK)
By your own admission, the events you work on typically have feedback
problems,

Not by the time we go live. ;-)

You said that you record performances to try to find ways to eliminate
feedback.

Post by Arny Krueger
Any other claims have come from proven liars like Phildo and George Gleason.
Of course neither Phildo and George Gleason have clue number one about my
work. Phildo does know the address of my church, but he has only used it to
harass me in the community where I live.

Post by Ron(UK)
perhaps your technique for ringing out isn`t working.

No, I just work in a very tough venue. It's a 50 year-old church that was
designed by a guy who had never designed a live venue before in his life. In
fact, his specialty was residences. It's a fairly horrid-sounding room,
before we do what we do.
The problems I have with feedback come from the only remaining parts of the
system that were put in by professional installers.
I'm quite sure Ron that you'd grow better chops for dealing with feedback if
you spent even just a day where I've live a day or two a week for like the
past 4 years.

How do you know what my 'chops' are like! I have no dificulty dealing
with ringing out, if you've been at it for 4 years, one would think that
you would have it all sussed out by now.

Post by Arny Krueger
I'd love to see you find out what a really challenging venue is like. When I
work almost anyplace else, managing feedback is so easy that I almost feel
like I died and went to heaven. ;-)

Actually, the venue in which I do much of my work is a converted
edwardian railway station. It`s a listed building so there`s virtually
no acoustic treatment of any kind. It`s all sandstone walls, stone
flagged floor and a vaulted glass roof. We dont tolerate feedback. It
makes working in churches, sports halls, covered over swimming pools
etc. - which I sometimes have to do at short notice - a doddle.

Methinks you have no idea about difficult venues.

Ron (UK)

[Steve White]

Post by Ron(UK)
Actually, the venue in which I do much of my work is a converted
edwardian railway station. It`s a listed building so there`s virtually no
acoustic treatment of any kind. It`s all sandstone walls, stone flagged
floor and a vaulted glass roof.

Hi Ron,

Do you have any thoughts you'd like to offer up on what works best in that
situation?

I occasionally find myself in places with awkward acoustics, perhaps not as
bad as this though.

Cheers,
Steve W

[Ron(UK)]

Post by Steve White

Post by Ron(UK)
Actually, the venue in which I do much of my work is a converted
edwardian railway station. It`s a listed building so there`s virtually no
acoustic treatment of any kind. It`s all sandstone walls, stone flagged
floor and a vaulted glass roof.

Hi Ron,
Do you have any thoughts you'd like to offer up on what works best in that
situation?
I occasionally find myself in places with awkward acoustics, perhaps not as
bad as this though.
Cheers,
Steve W

Well if you do any touring around the UK, you might well find yourself
in my venue at some point.

First off, stage volume is my enemy, as high stage volume usually
meanms high monitor levels. The wedges usually face directly up into the
slanting glass of the roof, which reflects the foldback sound straight
back onto the audience. So if I`m not careful, the front rows of the
audience are listening to the foldback from above instead of the mains

I usually tune the monitors for as flat a sound as I can get away with,
generally everything below around 100 cycles, and everything above
around 4k rolled off. I try to keep bass players and drummers as
restrained as possible in the foldback, but that`s not always so easy.

The big secret of avoiding feedback, is to not let it get so bloody loud
in the first place!

Front of house wise, the room has several big resonances which move
around according to the humidity and layout - the room isn`t always set
out the same way every gig. One around 80hz, 125hz etc. as I know where
these are these I dip them out initially, then ring out in the time
honoured manner (I dont play music while I`m doing it - I`ll leave that
method to the experts) There are also some high frequency issues that I
deal with in much the same way.

During a gig the house sound can change appreciably, particularly in
summer when a performance starts off in daylight and as the darkness
descends and the humidity rises the room resonances move up and the room
gets much more mellow. I`ve got quite adept at chasing it on the graphic
as the night goes on. I roll off all unnecessary low frequencies in the
mains to avoid exciting the room any more than I have to.

Another thing that I think is important is a really good quality graphic
equaliser, after a lot of nagging I got the venue to invest in a Klarke
Technik, and there was an immediate obvious improvement in sound over
the old Rane that was originally installed.

I try to set up the FOH speakers, so that they dont face directly into
any flat reflective surface, and with little height over the heads of
the audience when seated in an attempt to keep the sound contained low
and tight.

We have all kinds of events from slide shows and small conferences, to
theatre, opera, brass bands, folk, rock etc. and it all has to be done
with the same inventory of equipment, so life never gets dull.

Ron(UK)

[Arny Krueger]

Post by Ron(UK)

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Ron(UK)
By your own admission, the events you work on typically have feedback
problems,

Not by the time we go live. ;-)

You said that you record performances to try to find ways to eliminate
feedback.

OK, after doing something like 200 shows, things aren't always totally
perfect. I didn't learn what I now about feedback by starting out perfect.
There are kinds of feedback that don't come up to loud howling, but instead
are damped ringing after only certain kinds of stimulation.

Post by Ron(UK)

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Ron(UK)
perhaps your technique for ringing out isn`t working.

No, I just work in a very tough venue. It's a 50 year-old church that was
designed by a guy who had never designed a live venue before in his life.
In fact, his specialty was residences. It's a fairly horrid-sounding
room, before we do what we do.
The problems I have with feedback come from the only remaining parts of
the system that were put in by professional installers.
I'm quite sure Ron that you'd grow better chops for dealing with feedback
if you spent even just a day where I've live a day or two a week for
like the past 4 years.

How do you know what my 'chops' are like!

Because Ron, your ideas about ringing out a sound system would fall on their
face quickly in the venue where I do my most challenging work.

I started out ringing out my system about a year ago based on what I read in
books, got from other sound guys, and read on AAPLS. It was fragmented and
woefully inadequate in places.

When I made my reply to the OP I had just finished yet another ring-out
session within the hour.

This begs the question of why did I have to ring out *anything*, given that
people like Phildo and George keep claiming that I work on an "installed
system" that is stable and unchanging. The answer is: "The Annual Kids
Christmas Program". Three rehearsals and live next Sunday. Step one - clear
the stage and move the piano. The only thing that stayed the same was the
main cluster and the pipe organ.

Post by Ron(UK)
I have no dificulty dealing with ringing out, if you've been at it for 4
years, one would > think that you would have it all sussed out by now.

Ron, anybody who wants to can read your response to the OP from before I
posted, which would be no doubt indicitive of how well you've sussed ringing
out on your own. Of course there is no such post. ;-)

Post by Ron(UK)

Post by Arny Krueger
I'd love to see you find out what a really challenging venue is like.
When I work almost anyplace else, managing feedback is so easy that I
almost feel like I died and went to heaven. ;-)

Actually, the venue in which I do much of my work is a converted
edwardian railway station. It`s a listed building so there`s virtually no
acoustic treatment of any kind. It`s all sandstone walls, stone flagged
floor and a vaulted glass roof.

I would consider a vaulted roof to be a Godsend. I've been in rooms with
vaulted ceilings and they have done a pretty nice job of randomizing the
reverb. In contrast, I have a ceiling that is basically three large flat
slabs.

Similarly, my room has no acoustic treatment of any kind, right down the
tile floor and hard wood seats. There's plaster, stone, glass, polished
wood, heavily painted cinder blocks and a few square yards of carpet.

Post by Ron(UK)
We dont tolerate feedback. It makes working in churches, sports halls,
covered over swimming pools etc. - which I sometimes have to do at short
notice - a doddle.

No matter how much Phildo lies about me, I don't tolerate feedback.

Post by Ron(UK)
Methinks you have no idea about difficult venues.

Methinks that like George, Bob and Phildo you think you know my job better
than I do, Ron. I've never said the same about you. Instead, I said that I
know my job pretty well, and its a tough one.

Most knowlegable people who sit through a service or two in my room and walk
up to the booth afterwards, say that they are amazed at how good things
sound given the room. Some of the recordings I do there are favorably
compared to commercial recordings of similar kinds of music.

[George Gleason]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Ron(UK)

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Ron(UK)
By your own admission, the events you work on typically have feedback
problems,

Not by the time we go live. ;-)

You said that you record performances to try to find ways to eliminate
feedback.

OK, after doing something like 200 shows, things aren't always totally
perfect. I didn't learn what I now about feedback by starting out perfect.

200 shows? how many in the same room on the same installed system with
essential the same program and players?
200 completely unique shows, from venue to gear manifest to artist would be
about 6 months experiance for me
and I have been at it going on 20 years
but you still think you have experiance that I could never understand, you a
moron arnii
george

[Arny Krueger]

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Ron(UK)

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Ron(UK)
By your own admission, the events you work on typically have feedback
problems,

Not by the time we go live. ;-)

You said that you record performances to try to find ways to eliminate
feedback.

OK, after doing something like 200 shows, things aren't always totally
perfect. I didn't learn what I now about feedback by starting out perfect.

200 shows? how many in the same room on the same installed system with
essential the same program and players?

None. Everything keeps changing.

BTW George, who installed my system? You seem to think you know my rooms
better than I do! ;-)

[George Gleason]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Ron(UK)

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Ron(UK)
By your own admission, the events you work on typically have feedback
problems,

Not by the time we go live. ;-)

You said that you record performances to try to find ways to eliminate
feedback.

OK, after doing something like 200 shows, things aren't always totally
perfect. I didn't learn what I now about feedback by starting out perfect.

200 shows? how many in the same room on the same installed system with
essential the same program and players?

None. Everything keeps changing.
BTW George, who installed my system? You seem to think you know my rooms
better than I do! ;-)

[Arny Krueger]

Post by Gordon 101

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Ron(UK)

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Ron(UK)
By your own admission, the events you work on typically have

feedback

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Ron(UK)

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Ron(UK)
problems,

Not by the time we go live. ;-)

You said that you record performances to try to find ways to

eliminate

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Ron(UK)
feedback.

OK, after doing something like 200 shows, things aren't always totally
perfect. I didn't learn what I now about feedback by starting out perfect.

200 shows? how many in the same room on the same installed system with
essential the same program and players?

None. Everything keeps changing.
BTW George, who installed my system? You seem to think you know my rooms
better than I do! ;-)

<a post from George with no new contents>

[George Gleason]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Gordon 101

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Ron(UK)

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Ron(UK)
By your own admission, the events you work on typically have

feedback

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Ron(UK)

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Ron(UK)
problems,

Not by the time we go live. ;-)

You said that you record performances to try to find ways to

eliminate

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Ron(UK)
feedback.

OK, after doing something like 200 shows, things aren't always totally
perfect. I didn't learn what I now about feedback by starting out perfect.

200 shows? how many in the same room on the same installed system with
essential the same program and players?

None. Everything keeps changing.
BTW George, who installed my system? You seem to think you know my rooms
better than I do! ;-)

<a post from George with no new contents>

I can see you very busy at your job paying you your "6 figure" income today
arnii
and it would not be beyong reality that I know how to do better quality work
in your room
even haveing never been in it
it is called experiance arnii
I have it you don't
you seem to have the same two hours experiance repeated over and over
george

[Arny Krueger]

Post by George Gleason
you seem to have the same two hours experiance repeated over and over

Sorry George but you get no points for quoting me talking about you.

[George Gleason]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
you seem to have the same two hours experiance repeated over and over

Sorry George but you get no points for quoting me talking about you.

Points?
is this some kind of contest? is there a scorecard
you must have me confused with someone that is living in a tiny mentally
deranged paranoid world who thinks of the newsgroup as somesort of
winning/losing contest.

If I get enough "points" what do I win
a case of turtle wax or the home edition
If I don't get enough "points" what do I lose
will I be eliminated from the olympics?, will someone come and take my
children?
you are such a idiot arnii
George

[Phildo]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Ron(UK)

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Ron(UK)
By your own admission, the events you work on typically have feedback
problems,

Not by the time we go live. ;-)

You said that you record performances to try to find ways to eliminate
feedback.

OK, after doing something like 200 shows, things aren't always totally
perfect. I didn't learn what I now about feedback by starting out perfect.
There are kinds of feedback that don't come up to loud howling, but
instead are damped ringing after only certain kinds of stimulation.

Most of us walk into a room we are lucky if we've seen before and have the
length of time it takes to set up and soundcheck to get it right. After 200
shows I would expect it to be completely perfect. You have no idea what it
is like to be a real engineer Arny.

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Ron(UK)
How do you know what my 'chops' are like!

Because Ron, your ideas about ringing out a sound system would fall on
their face quickly in the venue where I do my most challenging work.

No they wouldn't. Working your room would be a walk in the park for a real
engineer. Your work would hardly be "challenging" for the vast majority of
people here Arny and yet you wonder why we laugh at you?

Post by Arny Krueger
I started out ringing out my system about a year ago based on what I read
in books, got from other sound guys, and read on AAPLS. It was fragmented
and woefully inadequate in places.

If you had been a real engineer you would have rung it out 4 years ago.
Hell, you've been posting here longer than that but then it took you at
least 4 years to find out where FOH was.

Post by Arny Krueger
When I made my reply to the OP I had just finished yet another ring-out
session within the hour.

So? By your comments you don't know how to ring out a system anyway.

Post by Arny Krueger
This begs the question of why did I have to ring out *anything*, given
that people like Phildo and George keep claiming that I work on an
"installed system" that is stable and unchanging. The answer is....

....You still haven't got it right and never will as long as you continue to
do things the Arny Krueger
I-know-better-than-anyone-else-because-I'm-an-arrogant-prick way.

Post by Arny Krueger
"The Annual Kids Christmas Program". Three rehearsals and live next
Sunday. Step one - clear the stage and move the piano. The only thing that
stayed the same was the main cluster and the pipe organ.

Big deal. You make a huge deal about using scenes on your desk so it should
all have een saved, one quick recall and a gew seconds of tweaking is all it
should take.

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Ron(UK)
I have no dificulty dealing with ringing out, if you've been at it for 4
years, one would > think that you would have it all sussed out by now.

Ron, anybody who wants to can read your response to the OP from before I
posted, which would be no doubt indicitive of how well you've sussed
ringing out on your own. Of course there is no such post. ;-)

Actually Ron knows a hell of a lot more about it than you do Arny but then
99.9% of sound engineers probably do as well. All you did with your post was
show your ignorance and now you just keep on digging.

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Ron(UK)

Post by Arny Krueger
I'd love to see you find out what a really challenging venue is like.
When I work almost anyplace else, managing feedback is so easy that I
almost feel like I died and went to heaven. ;-)

Actually, the venue in which I do much of my work is a converted
edwardian railway station. It`s a listed building so there`s virtually no
acoustic treatment of any kind. It`s all sandstone walls, stone flagged
floor and a vaulted glass roof.

I would consider a vaulted roof to be a Godsend. I've been in rooms with
vaulted ceilings and they have done a pretty nice job of randomizing the
reverb. In contrast, I have a ceiling that is basically three large flat
slabs.

A real engineer would have sorted your problems years ago Arny.

Post by Arny Krueger
Similarly, my room has no acoustic treatment of any kind, right down the
tile floor and hard wood seats. There's plaster, stone, glass, polished
wood, heavily painted cinder blocks and a few square yards of carpet.

Then why haven't you done something about it ????

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Ron(UK)
We dont tolerate feedback. It makes working in churches, sports halls,
covered over swimming pools etc. - which I sometimes have to do at short
notice - a doddle.

No matter how much Phildo lies about me, I don't tolerate feedback.

No, you just record it.

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Ron(UK)
Methinks you have no idea about difficult venues.

Methinks that like George, Bob and Phildo you think you know my job better
than I do, Ron. I've never said the same about you. Instead, I said that I
know my job pretty well, and its a tough one.

Of course we know your job better than you do because we know sound better
than you do. Between us we have many decades of knowledge and experience in
all sorts of situations and venues. The sooner you learn your place in the
sound world and get a bit of humility the better. You are a know-nothing
blowhard who is trying to tell seasoned professionals that you know more
about them. If you were to go to your local USAF fighter station and tell
the pilots you could take them in a dogfight because you sometimes potter
about in an old cessna they would laugh at you. Same thing happens here when
you tell us you know how to do sound.

Post by Arny Krueger
Most knowlegable people who sit through a service or two in my room and
walk up to the booth afterwards, say that they are amazed at how good
things sound given the room. Some of the recordings I do there are
favorably compared to commercial recordings of similar kinds of music.

You keep telling yourself that Arny. Your own words on here condemn you as a
know-nothing blowhard.

Phildo

[George Gleason]

Post by Phildo
....You still haven't got it right and never will as long as you continue to
do things the Arny Krueger
I-know-better-than-anyone-else-because-I'm-an-arrogant-prick way.

Post by Arny Krueger
"The Annual Kids Christmas Program". Three rehearsals and live next
Sunday. Step one - clear the stage and move the piano. The only thing that
stayed the same was the main cluster and the pipe organ.

BFD
you had a set change
last saturday I had 7 bands in 5 hours then only thing that was the same was
I didn't have to move the FOH set-up
geoprge

[Arny Krueger]

Post by George Gleason

Post by Phildo
....You still haven't got it right and never will as long as you continue

to

Post by Phildo
do things the Arny Krueger
I-know-better-than-anyone-else-because-I'm-an-arrogant-prick way.

Post by Arny Krueger
"The Annual Kids Christmas Program". Three rehearsals and live next
Sunday. Step one - clear the stage and move the piano. The only thing

that

Post by Phildo

Post by Arny Krueger
stayed the same was the main cluster and the pipe organ.

BFD
you had a set change

That makes a liar out of you then, doesn't it?

Post by George Gleason
last saturday I had 7 bands in 5 hours then only thing that was the same was
I didn't have to move the FOH set-up

Moving and reconnecting and disconnecting every monitor and every mic isn't
the same thing. This would be another one of your festival-like gigs
Goerge, right?

All the bands were pretty much from the same genre, not at all like a
switchover from doing all music to doing drama.

Right George?



IOW nothing changed.

[George Gleason]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Phildo
....You still haven't got it right and never will as long as you continue

to

Post by Phildo
do things the Arny Krueger
I-know-better-than-anyone-else-because-I'm-an-arrogant-prick way.

Post by Arny Krueger
"The Annual Kids Christmas Program". Three rehearsals and live next
Sunday. Step one - clear the stage and move the piano. The only thing

that

Post by Phildo

Post by Arny Krueger
stayed the same was the main cluster and the pipe organ.

BFD
you had a set change

That makes a liar out of you then, doesn't it?

Post by George Gleason
last saturday I had 7 bands in 5 hours then only thing that was the same was
I didn't have to move the FOH set-up

Moving and reconnecting and disconnecting every monitor and every mic isn't
the same thing. This would be another one of your festival-like gigs
Goerge, right?
All the bands were pretty much from the same genre, not at all like a
switchover from doing all music to doing drama.
Right George?

arnii do some live sound and then get back to us
George

[Arny Krueger]

Post by Phildo

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Phildo
....You still haven't got it right and never will as long as you

continue

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
to

Post by Phildo
do things the Arny Krueger
I-know-better-than-anyone-else-because-I'm-an-arrogant-prick way.

Post by Arny Krueger
"The Annual Kids Christmas Program". Three rehearsals and live next
Sunday. Step one - clear the stage and move the piano. The only thing

that

Post by Phildo

Post by Arny Krueger
stayed the same was the main cluster and the pipe organ.

BFD
you had a set change

That makes a liar out of you then, doesn't it?

Post by George Gleason
last saturday I had 7 bands in 5 hours then only thing that was the
same
was
I didn't have to move the FOH set-up

Moving and reconnecting and disconnecting every monitor and every mic

isn't

Post by Arny Krueger
the same thing. This would be another one of your festival-like gigs
Goerge, right?
All the bands were pretty much from the same genre, not at all like a
switchover from doing all music to doing drama.
Right George?

arnii do some live sound and then get back to us

Been there done that, George.

George, if you know my room so well, why are you so clueless about it?

Pehaps you mostly talk out of the back of your neck?

[George Gleason]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Phildo

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Phildo
....You still haven't got it right and never will as long as you

continue

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
to

Post by Phildo
do things the Arny Krueger
I-know-better-than-anyone-else-because-I'm-an-arrogant-prick way.

Post by Arny Krueger
"The Annual Kids Christmas Program". Three rehearsals and live next
Sunday. Step one - clear the stage and move the piano. The only thing

that

Post by Phildo

Post by Arny Krueger
stayed the same was the main cluster and the pipe organ.

BFD
you had a set change

That makes a liar out of you then, doesn't it?

Post by George Gleason
last saturday I had 7 bands in 5 hours then only thing that was the
same
was
I didn't have to move the FOH set-up

Moving and reconnecting and disconnecting every monitor and every mic

isn't

Post by Arny Krueger
the same thing. This would be another one of your festival-like gigs
Goerge, right?
All the bands were pretty much from the same genre, not at all like a
switchover from doing all music to doing drama.
Right George?

arnii do some live sound and then get back to us

Been there done that, George.

Post a link to a review of your work.
prove you've "been there" and "done that"
the only thing I can find about your work online is how the stereo magazine
guy bitch slapped you at some pointless debate

George

[Arny Krueger]

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Phildo

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Phildo
....You still haven't got it right and never will as long as you

continue

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
to

Post by Phildo
do things the Arny Krueger
I-know-better-than-anyone-else-because-I'm-an-arrogant-prick way.

Post by Arny Krueger
"The Annual Kids Christmas Program". Three rehearsals and live

next

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Phildo

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Phildo

Post by Arny Krueger
Sunday. Step one - clear the stage and move the piano. The only thing

that

Post by Phildo

Post by Arny Krueger
stayed the same was the main cluster and the pipe organ.

BFD
you had a set change

That makes a liar out of you then, doesn't it?

Post by George Gleason
last saturday I had 7 bands in 5 hours then only thing that was the
same
was
I didn't have to move the FOH set-up

Moving and reconnecting and disconnecting every monitor and every mic

isn't

Post by Arny Krueger
the same thing. This would be another one of your festival-like gigs
Goerge, right?
All the bands were pretty much from the same genre, not at all like a
switchover from doing all music to doing drama.
Right George?

arnii do some live sound and then get back to us

Been there done that, George.

Post a link to a review of your work.

A meaningless criteria.

Post by George Gleason
prove you've "been there" and "done that"

Specify there and that, George.

Post by George Gleason
the only thing I can find about your work online is how the stereo magazine
guy bitch slapped you at some pointless debate.

Good example of how delusional you are, George. Time to sober up!

[George Gleason]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Phildo

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Phildo
....You still haven't got it right and never will as long as you

continue

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
to

Post by Phildo
do things the Arny Krueger
I-know-better-than-anyone-else-because-I'm-an-arrogant-prick way.

Post by Arny Krueger
"The Annual Kids Christmas Program". Three rehearsals and live

next

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Phildo

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Phildo

Post by Arny Krueger
Sunday. Step one - clear the stage and move the piano. The only thing

that

Post by Phildo

Post by Arny Krueger
stayed the same was the main cluster and the pipe organ.

BFD
you had a set change

That makes a liar out of you then, doesn't it?

Post by George Gleason
last saturday I had 7 bands in 5 hours then only thing that was the
same
was
I didn't have to move the FOH set-up

Moving and reconnecting and disconnecting every monitor and every mic

isn't

Post by Arny Krueger
the same thing. This would be another one of your festival-like

gigs

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Phildo

Post by Arny Krueger
Goerge, right?
All the bands were pretty much from the same genre, not at all like a
switchover from doing all music to doing drama.
Right George?

arnii do some live sound and then get back to us

Been there done that, George.

Post a link to a review of your work.

A meaningless criteria.

Post by George Gleason
prove you've "been there" and "done that"

Specify there and that, George.

those were YOUR words arnii, you claimed you"been there , done that" in this
very post

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
the only thing I can find about your work online is how the stereo magazine
guy bitch slapped you at some pointless debate.

Good example of how delusional you are, George. Time to sober up!

its all there online
just google arny krooger and it all comes up
George

[George Gleason]

Post by Arny Krueger
Most knowlegable people who sit through a service or two in my room and
walk up to the booth afterwards, say that they are amazed at how good
things sound given the room.

Sounds like your "knowledgable people" are saying the sound sucks but are
trying to be polite to you by blaming the "room"
it is a backhanded compliment arnii kinda like "you don't sweat much for a
fat guy"


george

[Arny Krueger]

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger
Most knowlegable people who sit through a service or two in my room and
walk up to the booth afterwards, say that they are amazed at how good
things sound given the room.

Sounds like your "knowledgable people" are saying the sound sucks but are
trying to be polite to you by blaming the "room"
it is a backhanded compliment arnii kinda like "you don't sweat much for a
fat guy"

Thanks George for admitting that no matter what I say, you'll make a big
point of interperting it the most negative way your little busted ego can
come up with.

[George Gleason]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger
Most knowlegable people who sit through a service or two in my room and
walk up to the booth afterwards, say that they are amazed at how good
things sound given the room.

Sounds like your "knowledgable people" are saying the sound sucks but are
trying to be polite to you by blaming the "room"
it is a backhanded compliment arnii kinda like "you don't sweat much for a
fat guy"

Thanks George for admitting that no matter what I say, you'll make a big
point of interperting it the most negative way your little busted ego can
come up with.

Sort of like you insuinating that my donated effort for the Oswego Gospel
choir were sole based on some publicity motivation about my company
of couse I can't work with religious groups just because I want to help
you feel I am too evil for that

[Arny Krueger]

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger
Most knowlegable people who sit through a service or two in my room

and

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger
walk up to the booth afterwards, say that they are amazed at how good
things sound given the room.

Sounds like your "knowledgable people" are saying the sound sucks but

are

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
trying to be polite to you by blaming the "room"
it is a backhanded compliment arnii kinda like "you don't sweat much
for

a

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
fat guy"

Thanks George for admitting that no matter what I say, you'll make a big
point of interperting it the most negative way your little busted ego can
come up with.

Sort of like you insuinating that my donated effort for the Oswego Gospel
choir were sole based on some publicity motivation about my company
of couse I can't work with religious groups just because I want to help
you feel I am too evil for that

No George, I think that the idea of you working your butt off to promote the
Gospel appeals to my sense of justice.

You blow hard and long about the evils of Christianity and then you turn
around do charity concerts for Christian groups.

Wow, you really do like making yourself look like a hypocrite, don't you
George?

[George Gleason]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger
Most knowlegable people who sit through a service or two in my room

and

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger
walk up to the booth afterwards, say that they are amazed at how good
things sound given the room.

Sounds like your "knowledgable people" are saying the sound sucks but

are

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
trying to be polite to you by blaming the "room"
it is a backhanded compliment arnii kinda like "you don't sweat much
for

a

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
fat guy"

Thanks George for admitting that no matter what I say, you'll make a big
point of interperting it the most negative way your little busted ego can
come up with.

Sort of like you insuinating that my donated effort for the Oswego Gospel
choir were sole based on some publicity motivation about my company
of couse I can't work with religious groups just because I want to help
you feel I am too evil for that

No George, I think that the idea of you working your butt off to promote the
Gospel appeals to my sense of justice.
You blow hard and long about the evils of Christianity and then you turn
around do charity concerts for Christian groups.
Wow, you really do like making yourself look like a hypocrite, don't you
George?

arnii I support peoples desire to have religion in their lives
I just personally have no use for it
You are so blinded by your hatered you can not see the beauty in helping
just for the sake of helping

George

[Arny Krueger]

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger
Most knowlegable people who sit through a service or two in my

room

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
and

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger
walk up to the booth afterwards, say that they are amazed at how good
things sound given the room.

Sounds like your "knowledgable people" are saying the sound sucks but

are

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
trying to be polite to you by blaming the "room"
it is a backhanded compliment arnii kinda like "you don't sweat much
for

a

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
fat guy"

Thanks George for admitting that no matter what I say, you'll make a

big

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger
point of interperting it the most negative way your little busted ego

can

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger
come up with.

Sort of like you insuinating that my donated effort for the Oswego

Gospel

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
choir were sole based on some publicity motivation about my company
of couse I can't work with religious groups just because I want to help
you feel I am too evil for that

No George, I think that the idea of you working your butt off to promote

the

Post by Arny Krueger
Gospel appeals to my sense of justice.
You blow hard and long about the evils of Christianity and then you turn
around do charity concerts for Christian groups.
Wow, you really do like making yourself look like a hypocrite, don't you
George?

arnii I support peoples desire to have religion in their lives

That's not what you've said here, George.

Post by George Gleason
I just personally have no use for it

That's obvious, and I have no problem with that.

Post by George Gleason
You are so blinded by your hatered you can not see the beauty in helping
just for the sake of helping

Trouble is George, I see the vast difference between what you say and what
you do.

[Arny Krueger]

Post by Phildo

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Ron(UK)

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Ron(UK)
By your own admission, the events you work on typically have feedback
problems,

Not by the time we go live. ;-)

You said that you record performances to try to find ways to eliminate
feedback.

OK, after doing something like 200 shows, things aren't always totally
perfect. I didn't learn what I now about feedback by starting out
perfect. There are kinds of feedback that don't come up to loud howling,
but instead are damped ringing after only certain kinds of stimulation.

Most of us walk into a room we are lucky if we've seen before and have the
length of time it takes to set up and soundcheck to get it right.

They kick off the ship you've been working on *that often*, Phildo?

[George Gleason]

Post by Ron(UK)
Methinks you have no idea about difficult venues.

arnii's idea of a difficult room is a nice clean dry humidity controlled
church walking up to a installed system that he speced, purchased and
installed and doing a couple of hours a week of voulenteer system
babysitting
of the same people week after week
george

[Arny Krueger]

Post by George Gleason

Post by Ron(UK)
Methinks you have no idea about difficult venues.

arnii's idea of a difficult room is a nice clean dry humidity controlled
church walking up to a installed system that he speced, purchased and
installed and doing a couple of hours a week of voulenteer system
babysitting of the same people week after week

Just a second George, since when is a system I speced, purchased, and
installed is the same as those installed systems that Phildo uses on ship?

[George Gleason]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Ron(UK)
Methinks you have no idea about difficult venues.

arnii's idea of a difficult room is a nice clean dry humidity controlled
church walking up to a installed system that he speced, purchased and
installed and doing a couple of hours a week of voulenteer system
babysitting of the same people week after week

Just a second George, since when is a system I speced, purchased, and
installed is the same as those installed systems that Phildo uses on ship?

first arnii we are discussing you
but phildo current gig is only a small portion of his decades of live sound
experiance, he also mixed on the fixed system at one of the most active rock
clubs in the world,a real school of hard knocks trainig ground
perhaps you've heard of the Whisky a Go Go?
and yes phildos installed rigs are simplier than haveing to assemble a
system from the out of a 53 foot trailer at a diffrent venue each day
from all reports though phildos is actually using the systems to thier best
while your system is plauged by feedback
george

[Arny Krueger]

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Ron(UK)
Methinks you have no idea about difficult venues.

arnii's idea of a difficult room is a nice clean dry humidity controlled
church walking up to a installed system that he speced, purchased and
installed and doing a couple of hours a week of voulenteer system
babysitting of the same people week after week

Just a second George, since when is a system I speced, purchased, and
installed is the same as those installed systems that Phildo uses on ship?

first arnii we are discussing you

Wrong George, we're talking installed systems, which you seem to think mean
that only limited skills are required.

Post by George Gleason
but phildo current gig is only a small portion of his decades of live sound

experience,

But isn't it true that he couldn't hack that life any more and had to find
easier work?

Post by George Gleason
perhaps you've heard of the Whisky a Go Go?

I've also heard that Phildo lies about where he's pulled gigs.

[George Gleason]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Ron(UK)
Methinks you have no idea about difficult venues.

arnii's idea of a difficult room is a nice clean dry humidity controlled
church walking up to a installed system that he speced, purchased and
installed and doing a couple of hours a week of voulenteer system
babysitting of the same people week after week

Just a second George, since when is a system I speced, purchased, and
installed is the same as those installed systems that Phildo uses on ship?

first arnii we are discussing you

Wrong George, we're talking installed systems, which you seem to think mean
that only limited skills are required.

Post by George Gleason
but phildo current gig is only a small portion of his decades of live sound

experience,
But isn't it true that he couldn't hack that life any more and had to find
easier work?

Phildo doesn't own a sound company, or work for a sound company
most of his work will be on installed systems
just not the same one until time stands still

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
perhaps you've heard of the Whisky a Go Go?

I've also heard that Phildo lies about where he's pulled gigs.

Haven't heard that,
I heard you were a pedophile does that make it true?
George

[Arny Krueger]

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Ron(UK)
Methinks you have no idea about difficult venues.

arnii's idea of a difficult room is a nice clean dry humidity controlled
church walking up to a installed system that he speced, purchased and
installed and doing a couple of hours a week of voulenteer system
babysitting of the same people week after week

Just a second George, since when is a system I speced, purchased, and
installed is the same as those installed systems that Phildo uses on ship?

first arnii we are discussing you

Wrong George, we're talking installed systems, which you seem to think

mean

Post by Arny Krueger
that only limited skills are required.

Post by George Gleason
but phildo current gig is only a small portion of his decades of live

sound

Post by Arny Krueger
experience,
But isn't it true that he couldn't hack that life any more and had to find
easier work?

Phildo doesn't own a sound company, or work for a sound company
most of his work will be on installed systems
just not the same one until time stands still

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
perhaps you've heard of the Whisky a Go Go?

I've also heard that Phildo lies about where he's pulled gigs.

Haven't heard that,
I heard you were a pedophile does that make it true?

What do you think, George?

Am I really a pedophile?

[Robert McTigue]

Post by Arny Krueger
What do you think, George?
Am I really a pedophile?

I think you just a big cock sucking fag that likes it bare back and
loves small boys.

[Arny Krueger]

Post by Arny Krueger
What do you think, George?
Am I really a pedophile?

I think you just a big cock sucking fag that likes it bare back and loves
small boys.

Thanks for sharing that fantasy of yours, Robert. It's gross, but it
provides an insight into what motivates you. Really, in your pictures you
look like the sort of guy what would dream about stuff like that.

[George Gleason]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Ron(UK)
Methinks you have no idea about difficult venues.

arnii's idea of a difficult room is a nice clean dry humidity controlled
church walking up to a installed system that he speced, purchased and
installed and doing a couple of hours a week of voulenteer system
babysitting of the same people week after week

Just a second George, since when is a system I speced, purchased, and
installed is the same as those installed systems that Phildo uses on ship?

first arnii we are discussing you

Wrong George, we're talking installed systems, which you seem to think

mean

Post by Arny Krueger
that only limited skills are required.

Post by George Gleason
but phildo current gig is only a small portion of his decades of live

sound

Post by Arny Krueger
experience,
But isn't it true that he couldn't hack that life any more and had to find
easier work?

Phildo doesn't own a sound company, or work for a sound company
most of his work will be on installed systems
just not the same one until time stands still

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
perhaps you've heard of the Whisky a Go Go?

I've also heard that Phildo lies about where he's pulled gigs.

Haven't heard that,
I heard you were a pedophile does that make it true?

What do you think, George?
Am I really a pedophile?

I heard it was true, by you in your own words

if you were telling the truth I would have to believe you know yourself
better than I know you
but not being you and reading all the bullshit you make up about yourself I
have no idea if you were bragging or lying
George
George

[Arny Krueger]

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Ron(UK)
Methinks you have no idea about difficult venues.

arnii's idea of a difficult room is a nice clean dry humidity controlled
church walking up to a installed system that he speced, purchased and
installed and doing a couple of hours a week of voulenteer system
babysitting of the same people week after week

Just a second George, since when is a system I speced, purchased,

and

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger
installed is the same as those installed systems that Phildo uses
on
ship?

first arnii we are discussing you

Wrong George, we're talking installed systems, which you seem to think

mean

Post by Arny Krueger
that only limited skills are required.

Post by George Gleason
but phildo current gig is only a small portion of his decades of live

sound

Post by Arny Krueger
experience,
But isn't it true that he couldn't hack that life any more and had to find
easier work?

Phildo doesn't own a sound company, or work for a sound company
most of his work will be on installed systems
just not the same one until time stands still

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
perhaps you've heard of the Whisky a Go Go?

I've also heard that Phildo lies about where he's pulled gigs.

Haven't heard that,
I heard you were a pedophile does that make it true?

What do you think, George?
Am I really a pedophile?

I heard it was true, by you in your own words

No George those were forgeries. But thanks for showing that you can't tell
the difference between legitimate posts and very obvious forgeries.

[Robert McTigue]

Post by George Gleason
Haven't heard that,
I heard you were a pedophile does that make it true?
George

You know what they say ...
Abstinice makes the church grow fondler's.

[Phildo]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Ron(UK)
Methinks you have no idea about difficult venues.

arnii's idea of a difficult room is a nice clean dry humidity controlled
church walking up to a installed system that he speced, purchased and
installed and doing a couple of hours a week of voulenteer system
babysitting of the same people week after week

Just a second George, since when is a system I speced, purchased, and
installed is the same as those installed systems that Phildo uses on ship?

You forget Arny that the system on the ship is only one of thousands of
systems I have used all over the world in nearly 3 decades of live sound
experience.

Anyway, the system on ship was specced by someone who knew what they were
doing not a clueless, know-nothing blowhard who only gets to do sound
because he volunteers for a job nobody else wants.

Phildo

[Arny Krueger]

Post by Phildo
Anyway, the system on ship was specced by someone who knew what they were
doing not a clueless, know-nothing blowhard who only gets to do sound
because he volunteers for a job nobody else wants.

Phildo, this represents a really positive step, as compared to your earlier
lies about me begging for the job.

What caused you to change your story?

[Robert McTigue]

Post by George Gleason

Post by Ron(UK)
Methinks you have no idea about difficult venues.

arnii's idea of a difficult room is a nice clean dry humidity controlled
church walking up to a installed system that he speced, purchased and
installed and doing a couple of hours a week of voulenteer system
babysitting
of the same people week after week
george

Thats because Arnii is a joke. Watch ... he will dig a big hole AGAIN.

[George Gleason]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Ron(UK)
By your own admission, the events you work on typically have feedback
problems,

Not by the time we go live. ;-)
Any other claims have come from proven liars like Phildo and George Gleason.
Of course neither Phildo and George Gleason have clue number one about my
work. Phildo does know the address of my church, but he has only used it to
harass me in the community where I live.

Post by Ron(UK)
perhaps your technique for ringing out isn`t working.

No, I just work in a very tough venue. It's a 50 year-old church that was
designed by a guy who had never designed a live venue before in his life. In
fact, his specialty was residences. It's a fairly horrid-sounding room,
before we do what we do.
The problems I have with feedback come from the only remaining parts of the
system that were put in by professional installers.
I'm quite sure Ron that you'd grow better chops for dealing with feedback if
you spent even just a day where I've live a day or two a week for like the
past 4 years.
I'd love to see you find out what a really challenging venue is like. When I
work almost anyplace else, managing feedback is so easy that I almost feel
like I died and went to heaven. ;-)

what complete rubbish.
arnii you told us you speced ,purchased and installed the fixed system you
work on, the one you need to record services to evalute feedback freq. on
try doing a rap concert in a swimming pool if you want a challenging "room"

get out of your little ego driven paranoia and come to understand that your
little church is as easy as rooms get
walking into a fixed rig flipping a power switch and unmuteing the desk
job done.
get a life arnii you do not have any experiance in "hard rooms" or any
skills as a live sound op
your just a flagrent jerk off who likes to pretend they are doing pro level
live sound
you arn't on any level even up to weekend warrior caliber arnii
you simply don't have the skills, understamding, or personality to make it
in live sound
so you beg for a voulenteer position
wank on lil buddy.
George

[Arny Krueger]

Post by George Gleason
arnii you told us you speced ,purchased and installed the fixed system you
work on, the one you need to record services to evalute feedback freq. on
try doing a rap concert in a swimming pool if you want a challenging "room"

George, when was the last time you were in my church?

If you've never been there, how come you're such an expert about it?

[George Gleason]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
arnii you told us you speced ,purchased and installed the fixed system you
work on, the one you need to record services to evalute feedback freq. on
try doing a rap concert in a swimming pool if you want a challenging "room"

George, when was the last time you were in my church?

arnii I have working in every kind of church except buddist temple
I don't need to go into another cookie cutter christian church to be able to
make valid observations about working in churches

Post by Arny Krueger
If you've never been there, how come you're such an expert about it?

its called experiance arnii
If I hit my hand with a ball and peen hammer I am smart enough to figure out
what hitting my hand with a claw hammer would be like, without actuall doing
it

I have worked enough rooms that I doubt you could present me with a
acoustical challenge I have not already experianced

[Arny Krueger]

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
arnii you told us you speced ,purchased and installed the fixed system

you

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
work on, the one you need to record services to evalute feedback freq.

on

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
try doing a rap concert in a swimming pool if you want a challenging "room"

George, when was the last time you were in my church?

arnii I have working in every kind of church except buddist temple
I don't need to go into another cookie cutter christian church to be able to
make valid observations about working in churches

Post by Arny Krueger
If you've never been there, how come you're such an expert about it?

its called experiance arnii

But you admit that you've never experienced the room I work in on Sundays,
George.

So exactly what does that make your non-existent experience, George?

[George Gleason]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
arnii you told us you speced ,purchased and installed the fixed system

you

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
work on, the one you need to record services to evalute feedback freq.

on

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
try doing a rap concert in a swimming pool if you want a challenging "room"

George, when was the last time you were in my church?

arnii I have working in every kind of church except buddist temple
I don't need to go into another cookie cutter christian church to be

able

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
to
make valid observations about working in churches

Post by Arny Krueger
If you've never been there, how come you're such an expert about it?

its called experiance arnii

But you admit that you've never experienced the room I work in on Sundays,
George.
So exactly what does that make your non-existent experience, George?

Well , basec in reality
I haven't work at St. Peters on salina street either but I have the
experiance to understand what working there would require
arnii there is nothing special or difficult about "your" church that I have
not already dealt with in dozens of other public buildings
George

[Arny Krueger]

Post by Andy & Kim

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
arnii you told us you speced ,purchased and installed the fixed

system

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
you

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
work on, the one you need to record services to evalute feedback

freq.

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
on

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
try doing a rap concert in a swimming pool if you want a challenging "room"

George, when was the last time you were in my church?

arnii I have working in every kind of church except buddist temple
I don't need to go into another cookie cutter christian church to be

able

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason
to
make valid observations about working in churches

Post by Arny Krueger
If you've never been there, how come you're such an expert about it?

its called experiance arnii

But you admit that you've never experienced the room I work in on Sundays,
George.
So exactly what does that make your non-existent experience, George?

Well , basec in reality

George, you know that basec isn't a word, right?

Post by Andy & Kim
I haven't work at St. Peters on salina street either but I have the
experiance to understand what working there would require
arnii there is nothing special or difficult about "your" church that I have
not already dealt with in dozens of other public buildings

IOW George, you know it all, even without seeing it. Is that what you're
saying?

[Bob Urz]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Bob Urz

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Andy & Kim
Could somebody talk me thought the correct way to ring out the sound
system. I have seen it mentioned on this group but would be interested to
know how to do it correctly.

(1) First using octave or parametric equalizers ensure that your mains
and monitors have relatively smooth and balanced response. Peaky response
can lead to instability at the frequencies with the highest peaks. Simply
elimination or reducing response peaks can sometimes stabilize your system.

What you neglected to mention here is how are you adjusting for "smooth
and balanced" response.?

Not neglectful, just not wanting to post a complete guide to live sound in
one post. Please feel free to start a new thread, Bob.

Post by Bob Urz
Most people i know don't use music. NO need to make more noise to
discriminate against.

Most people I know do, so I guess you need to choose your friends better,
Bob.

You don't get it, this is nat about a popularity contest.

Futhermore, anybody who can't distinguish a case of ringing from music

Post by Arny Krueger
playing does not seem like a person with enough chops in live sound to be
worth bothering to try to instruct.

After all if you can't hear ringing with

Post by Arny Krueger
music playing, how do you know that you have a problem?

Post by Bob Urz
More in the scope of permanent systems, a DFR unit such as a Shure DFR11/22
inserted into a system greatly simplifies the process.

Training wheels make it a lot easier to ride a bike as well, Bob. I'm
guessing that you either are too old and clumsy to ride a bike, or your bike
still has training wheels on it.

I am sure Shure will be delighted that you don't approve of there
successful products. And think there entry level. Sorry you don't
have the chops to understand them.

Post by Arny Krueger
What you neglected to say Bob is that the DFR 22 (the current model) costs
about a grand and that you're a Shure dealer.

I sell them for a lot less than that.
And a DFR 11 is STILL current.

Post by Arny Krueger
Bob you seem to agree with George Gleason and Phildo that I'm the dumbest
idiot ever to operate a SR system. Yet, I wouldn't personally use a DFR 22
on the grounds that I find ringing out a SR system to be way to easy to do
to be worth paying one large for an automated gizmo when I can do it myself
so easily? What does that say about the people you hang around with, Bob?
;-)

Arny, Arny, will you ever get it? I am beginning to think its a lost
cause. You have totally lost the ability to discriminate between
discussion of your comments and a personal attack. I don't recall
any "dancing on your grave" comments here. When you post something
here, its not "Hands off don't dare comment because Arny says its so"
Your going to get people agreeing or disagreeing. There was no
disparagement. Just comments on selected parts of your post.
No Arny was full of .....
And there was people posting in agreeing with what i was saying.
Get a life Arny.



Bob

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
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[Arny Krueger]

Post by Bob Urz
Arny, Arny, will you ever get it?

I get I Bob. All discussions with you have and always will be one way, from
you to me. You're up on that high tower and I'm mere dirt.

[Phildo]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Bob Urz
Arny, Arny, will you ever get it?

You're up on that high tower and I'm mere dirt.

Finally Arny gets a clue.

Phildo

[George Gleason]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Bob Urz
Arny, Arny, will you ever get it?

I get I Bob. All discussions with you have and always will be one way, from
you to me. You're up on that high tower and I'm mere dirt.

seems like you are starting to get "it" arnii
george

[Arny Krueger]

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Bob Urz
Arny, Arny, will you ever get it?

I get I Bob. All discussions with you have and always will be one way,

from

Post by Arny Krueger
you to me. You're up on that high tower and I'm mere dirt.

seems like you are starting to get "it" arnii

Is there an echo in here, or are Phildo and George joined at the hip? ;-)

[George Gleason]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Bob Urz
Arny, Arny, will you ever get it?

I get I Bob. All discussions with you have and always will be one way,

from

Post by Arny Krueger
you to me. You're up on that high tower and I'm mere dirt.

seems like you are starting to get "it" arnii

Is there an echo in here, or are Phildo and George joined at the hip? ;-)

I read that as we simple are agreeing with you arnii
george

[Arny Krueger]

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Bob Urz
Arny, Arny, will you ever get it?

I get I Bob. All discussions with you have and always will be one way,

from

Post by Arny Krueger
you to me. You're up on that high tower and I'm mere dirt.

seems like you are starting to get "it" arnii

Is there an echo in here, or are Phildo and George joined at the hip? ;-)

I read that as we simple are agreeing with you arnii

Two wounded egos, consoling each other. Where's the news in that?

[George Gleason]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by George Gleason

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Bob Urz
Arny, Arny, will you ever get it?

I get I Bob. All discussions with you have and always will be one way,

from

Post by Arny Krueger
you to me. You're up on that high tower and I'm mere dirt.

seems like you are starting to get "it" arnii

Is there an echo in here, or are Phildo and George joined at the hip? ;-)

I read that as we simple are agreeing with you arnii

Two wounded egos, consoling each other. Where's the news in that?

I take it english is not your native language arnii.
where in that post did you see any "consoling"
George

[Robert McTigue]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Bob Urz

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Andy & Kim
Could somebody talk me thought the correct way to ring out the sound
system. I have seen it mentioned on this group but would be interested to
know how to do it correctly.

(1) First using octave or parametric equalizers ensure that your mains
and monitors have relatively smooth and balanced response. Peaky response
can lead to instability at the frequencies with the highest peaks. Simply
elimination or reducing response peaks can sometimes stabilize your system.

What you neglected to mention here is how are you adjusting for "smooth
and balanced" response.?

Not neglectful, just not wanting to post a complete guide to live sound in
one post. Please feel free to start a new thread, Bob.

Post by Bob Urz
Most people i know don't use music. NO need to make more noise to
discriminate against.

Most people I know do, so I guess you need to choose your friends better,
Bob. Futhermore, anybody who can't distinguish a case of ringing from music
playing does not seem like a person with enough chops in live sound to be
worth bothering to try to instruct. After all if you can't hear ringing with
music playing, how do you know that you have a problem?

Post by Bob Urz
More in the scope of permanent systems, a DFR unit such as a Shure DFR11/22
inserted into a system greatly simplifies the process.

Training wheels make it a lot easier to ride a bike as well, Bob. I'm
guessing that you either are too old and clumsy to ride a bike, or your bike
still has training wheels on it.
What you neglected to say Bob is that the DFR 22 (the current model) costs
about a grand and that you're a Shure dealer.
Bob you seem to agree with George Gleason and Phildo that I'm the dumbest
idiot ever to operate a SR system. Yet, I wouldn't personally use a DFR 22
on the grounds that I find ringing out a SR system to be way to easy to do
to be worth paying one large for an automated gizmo when I can do it myself
so easily? What does that say about the people you hang around with, Bob?
;-)

See

[George Gleason]

Post by Arny Krueger
Bob you seem to agree with George Gleason and Phildo that I'm the dumbest
idiot ever to operate a SR system. Yet, I wouldn't personally use a DFR 22
on the grounds that I find ringing out a SR system to be way to easy to do
to be worth paying one large for an automated gizmo when I can do it myself
so easily? What does that say about the people you hang around with, Bob?
;-)

if you can do it so easily and well
then how come after more than a year with you fixed installed system it is
still feedingback to the point where your recording the services to analyse
the feedback and have another go at it a week later?

arnii you think way too much of yourself
I see it in the way you rail agaist the right tools for the job at hand
such as meters and now analysers
one could dig a foundation by kicking the dirt out of the way
but the smart people would use shovels.

george

[Phildo]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Bob Urz
Most people i know don't use music. NO need to make more noise to
discriminate against.

Most people I know do, so I guess you need to choose your friends better,

Or rather you need to hang out with people who actually know live sound
since Bob is perfectly right

Post by Arny Krueger
Bob. Futhermore, anybody who can't distinguish a case of ringing from
music playing does not seem like a person with enough chops in live sound
to be worth bothering to try to instruct.

This from someone who posted here for years and didn't learn what FOH meant,
sets his channels gains by ear and needs a full musical score to be able to
mix.

Post by Arny Krueger
After all if you can't hear ringing with music playing, how do you know
that you have a problem?

You do not need music to ring out a system. Keep digging though Arny as
there are no good flamewars going on at the moment and it's been at least 12
hours since you've made yourself look stupid on here.

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Bob Urz
More in the scope of permanent systems, a DFR unit such as a Shure
DFR11/22 inserted into a system greatly simplifies the process.

Training wheels make it a lot easier to ride a bike as well, Bob. I'm
guessing that you either are too old and clumsy to ride a bike, or your
bike still has training wheels on it.

What a prick you are Arny. Why not actually accept that you are wrong for
once and learn from the experience instead of just digging yourself in
deeper and making a fool of yourself yet again?

Post by Arny Krueger
Bob you seem to agree with George Gleason and Phildo that I'm the dumbest
idiot ever to operate a SR system.

That's a pretty safe assumption based on your comments posted here so far.
You've proved it all by yourself many times simply with the crap you post on
here.

Post by Arny Krueger
What does that say about the people you hang around with, Bob?

That they know a hell of a lot more about live sound than you do Arny !!!!

Phildo

[Robert McTigue]

When I "ring" out a system I do it with nothing playing ... I turn the
mic's on then I bring up the level slowly until there is a bit o
feedback then I go the the EQ and adjust as needed remembering not to
take too much out. When I tune a system its a whole different deal that
takes a bit more time. In the 70's and 80's I used pink noise and my
ears. In the mid 80's I got an RTA and used it a bit ... then Smaart. I
still use pink and can do it with out the RTA with no problem. Ringing
and tuning monitors is a different beast. Remember ... friends don't let
friends mix monitors :^)

[George Gleason]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Bob Urz

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Andy & Kim
Could somebody talk me thought the correct way to ring out the sound
system. I have seen it mentioned on this group but would be interested to
know how to do it correctly.

(1) First using octave or parametric equalizers ensure that your mains
and monitors have relatively smooth and balanced response. Peaky response
can lead to instability at the frequencies with the highest peaks. Simply
elimination or reducing response peaks can sometimes stabilize your system.

What you neglected to mention here is how are you adjusting for "smooth
and balanced" response.?

Not neglectful, just not wanting to post a complete guide to live sound in
one post. Please feel free to start a new thread, Bob.

Post by Bob Urz
Most people i know don't use music. NO need to make more noise to
discriminate against.

Most people I know do, so I guess you need to choose your friends better,
Bob. Futhermore, anybody who can't distinguish a case of ringing from music
playing does not seem like a person with enough chops in live sound to be
worth bothering to try to instruct. After all if you can't hear ringing with
music playing, how do you know that you have a problem?

as "ringing out" is DONE well before soundcheck starts I
Never use music to "ring out a system"
just way too much going on to get filters accuratly placed
I don't know any engineers who use music to "ring out " thier systems
I know some who will use music after the system is rung out and after sound
check
mostly to add pre-show ambience when the audience is arriving
but unless your doing a dj gig recorded music is pointless as a tuning tool
and if your doing live bands the "ringing out" is done before they are on
stage
George

[Michael R. Kesti]

Post by George Gleason
as "ringing out" is DONE well before soundcheck starts I
Never use music to "ring out a system"
just way too much going on to get filters accuratly placed
I don't know any engineers who use music to "ring out " thier systems
I know some who will use music after the system is rung out and after sound
check
mostly to add pre-show ambience when the audience is arriving
but unless your doing a dj gig recorded music is pointless as a tuning tool
and if your doing live bands the "ringing out" is done before they are on
stage

I'm in complete agreement, George, and I genuinely appreciate that you
were able to express your opinion without flamage. Well done!

[Albatross]

Just to throw my 5 cents into the ring.
The question needs to be asked, ... why are you ringing out the system?

Is this a often moved PA system that you carry around to various places or
is it a fixed installation, monitors on a stage, or something else?

Ringing out the system will allow you to get a higher volume for THAT
microphone in THAT position in relation to THAT speaker, by reducing the
frequencies that resonate between them.
A different microphone, with different characteristics, in a different
position on the stage, or in a room, will require different frequencies
removed to stop ringing.

It's certainly a quick & valid way to get more level before feedback in a
stage monitor situation, but won't necessarily give you a great sound
through monitors. And is certainly not a great way to get your whole PA
system to sound good for Front of House.
For myself I use ringing out as a basic tool, but rely more on the sound of
my voice, my ears, and playing known audio tracks from my CD collection
through a system to get a good sound.

Cheers,
Ric

Post by Andy & Kim
Could somebody talk me thought the correct way to ring out the sound
system. I have seen it mentioned on this group but would be interested to
know how to do it correctly.
Andy