Is it possible to isolate instruments/vocals in a mono recording? Can pitch correction be added to individual elements?

[Chris Whealy]

Is there a way that a mono recording, (i.e. the Beatles), can be
separated to isolate separate instrument/vocals and then apply Auto-
Tune/pitch correction or other fx?
Is it that it would take a lot of tech knowledge to execute this or
has something like this reached the point of just making the right
adjustments in a program like Cakewalk, Pro Tools, etc.?
Thanks.

No this is not possible. If it were, people would have disassembled the
Beatles as soon as the technology to do so was available.

Let me ask you the same question, but set in a different context, then
you should understand the situation better.
You have some red paint, some white paint and some blue paint and you
mix them together to form a kind of pinky-purple.
Can you un-mix the paint back to the original colours?

Chris W

[Nil]

Post by Chris Whealy
You have some red paint, some white paint and some blue paint and
you mix them together to form a kind of pinky-purple.
Can you un-mix the paint back to the original colours?

Or my favorite analogy: After you bake a cake, can you get the eggs
back out?

[z***@gmail.com]

Post by Nil

Post by Chris Whealy
You have some red paint, some white paint and some blue paint and
you mix them together to form a kind of pinky-purple.
Can you un-mix the paint back to the original colours?

Or my favorite analogy: After you bake a cake, can you get the eggs
back out?

Thanks for the replies...
I came across this link "Model-based techniques for signal separation
of audio signals (Adaptive conversion of monophonic audio to true
multitrack)"

http://www-users.york.ac.uk/~jes1/Mono-to-Multitrack.htm

So, I guess it's still in the research phase.

[Arny Krueger]

Post by Nil

Post by Chris Whealy
You have some red paint, some white paint and some blue
paint and you mix them together to form a kind of
pinky-purple.
Can you un-mix the paint back to the original colours?

Or my favorite analogy: After you bake a cake, can you
get the eggs back out?

Only if you don't mix the batter very well. ;-)

[Dave Emory]

Post by Nil

Post by Chris Whealy
You have some red paint, some white paint and some blue paint and
you mix them together to form a kind of pinky-purple.
Can you un-mix the paint back to the original colours?

Or my favorite analogy: After you bake a cake, can you get the eggs
back out?

Feed the cake to chickens, then collect the eggs that were "converted" from
cake.

[hank alrich]

Post by Dave Emory

Post by Nil

Post by Chris Whealy
You have some red paint, some white paint and some blue paint and
you mix them together to form a kind of pinky-purple.
Can you un-mix the paint back to the original colours?

Or my favorite analogy: After you bake a cake, can you get the eggs
back out?

Feed the cake to chickens, then collect the eggs that were "converted" from
cake.

Yeah, okay, but have you seen what happens when chickens eat music?

[Bob Howes]

Post by hank alrich

Post by Dave Emory

Post by Nil

Post by Chris Whealy
You have some red paint, some white paint and some blue paint and
you mix them together to form a kind of pinky-purple.
Can you un-mix the paint back to the original colours?

Or my favorite analogy: After you bake a cake, can you get the eggs
back out?

Feed the cake to chickens, then collect the eggs that were "converted" from
cake.

Yeah, okay, but have you seen what happens when chickens eat music?
--

Yeah. You get lumps of rap all over the chicken coop.

Bob

[Ty Ford]

Post by hank alrich

Post by Dave Emory

Post by Nil

Post by Chris Whealy
You have some red paint, some white paint and some blue paint and
you mix them together to form a kind of pinky-purple.
Can you un-mix the paint back to the original colours?

Or my favorite analogy: After you bake a cake, can you get the eggs
back out?

Feed the cake to chickens, then collect the eggs that were "converted" from
cake.

Yeah, okay, but have you seen what happens when chickens eat music?

Chicken shit?

(not a personal attack)

Ty Ford

--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar

[Arny Krueger]

Post by Chris Whealy
Let me ask you the same question, but set in a different
context, then you should understand the situation better.
You have some red paint, some white paint and some blue
paint and you mix them together to form a kind of
pinky-purple.
Can you un-mix the paint back to the original colours?

Sure, just examine the paint, molecule by molecule, and take advantage of
the fact that different pigments are different chemicals. This is probably
possible today, but very time-consuming.

[Max Arwood]

With all the negative answers I thought I would add a positive one.....
This would be very easy. You just call up Capital and as for the price to
lease the original masters. Dump it on the computer and do what ever you
want. Unless your budget is not in that range, if not hire some really good
studio musicians.

http://www.alivenetwork.com/bandpage.asp?bandname=(Beatles)%20Fab%20Beatles
or
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=64755501

Max Arwood

Is there a way that a mono recording, (i.e. the Beatles), can be
separated to isolate separate instrument/vocals and then apply Auto-
Tune/pitch correction or other fx?
Is it that it would take a lot of tech knowledge to execute this or
has something like this reached the point of just making the right
adjustments in a program like Cakewalk, Pro Tools, etc.?
Thanks.

[Sean Conolly]

Post by Max Arwood
With all the negative answers I thought I would add a positive one.....
This would be very easy. You just call up Capital and as for the price to
lease the original masters. Dump it on the computer and do what ever you
want. Unless your budget is not in that range, if not hire some really
good studio musicians.

Except that a lot of the old masters were also in mono. IIRC some of the
early sessions just used a single mic, with the band set up around it.

It's got me wondering, though, how much material was recorded as multi-track
to mono only, with no stereo version released. I would imagine that
multi-track recording and stereo releases followed each other fairly
closely, at least for pop music.

Sean

[nitpik]

Post by Max Arwood
With all the negative answers I thought I would add a positive one.....
This would be very easy. You just call up Capital and as for the price to
lease the original masters. Dump it on the computer and do what ever you
want. Unless your budget is not in that range, if not hire some really
good studio musicians.
http://www.alivenetwork.com/bandpage.asp?bandname=(Beatles)%20Fab%20Beatles
or
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=64755501
Max Arwood

Is there a way that a mono recording, (i.e. the Beatles), can be
separated to isolate separate instrument/vocals and then apply Auto-
Tune/pitch correction or other fx?
Is it that it would take a lot of tech knowledge to execute this or
has something like this reached the point of just making the right
adjustments in a program like Cakewalk, Pro Tools, etc.?
Thanks.

The Beatles music was mostly mastered on a 4 track machine. They did a lot
of bouncing to get the final mix.

[Phildo]

Is there a way that a mono recording, (i.e. the Beatles), can be
separated to isolate separate instrument/vocals and then apply Auto-
Tune/pitch correction or other fx?
Is it that it would take a lot of tech knowledge to execute this or
has something like this reached the point of just making the right
adjustments in a program like Cakewalk, Pro Tools, etc.?

It's very high-end technology but it is now possible. Interestingly enough
my cousin was working on a project to separate individual signals from a mix
a few years ago but this was for the military. I suppose the technology is
gradually filtering its way down to us, especially given the massive
increase in computing power since his team cracked the problem.

By the way, my cousin no longer works on that project but rather spends his
time designing nuclear weapons and working on particle accelerators these
days.

Phildo

[Ron(UK)]

Post by Phildo

Is there a way that a mono recording, (i.e. the Beatles), can be
separated to isolate separate instrument/vocals and then apply Auto-
Tune/pitch correction or other fx?
Is it that it would take a lot of tech knowledge to execute this or
has something like this reached the point of just making the right
adjustments in a program like Cakewalk, Pro Tools, etc.?

It's very high-end technology but it is now possible. Interestingly enough
my cousin was working on a project to separate individual signals from a mix
a few years ago but this was for the military. I suppose the technology is
gradually filtering its way down to us, especially given the massive
increase in computing power since his team cracked the problem.
By the way, my cousin no longer works on that project but rather spends his
time designing nuclear weapons and working on particle accelerators these
days.

They do it all the time on TV! Our guvmint boffins can isolate a fly
farting while it`s stuck on the windscreen of a jumbo jet in flight.
They can also blow up a single frame of blurry cctv footage to show the
hairs in a builders bumcrack!

Ain't technology wunnerful?

Ron(UK)(Spooks fan)

[Netmask]

Is there a way that a mono recording, (i.e. the Beatles), can be
separated to isolate separate instrument/vocals and then apply Auto-
Tune/pitch correction or other fx?
Is it that it would take a lot of tech knowledge to execute this or
has something like this reached the point of just making the right
adjustments in a program like Cakewalk, Pro Tools, etc.?
Thanks.

The mathematical problems of analysis are daunting, confounded by musical
terms that would be difficult to resolve as an algorithm. For example many
years ago I posted an example mono wav file of 2 flutes and a piano. One
flute played melody and the other an obligatio whilst the piano tinkled
away! The object was to produce a midi file (yes the old can you convert a
wavefile to midi question, so I can rip off someone else's arrangement, the
underlying motif for the question!!!). Now the problem is how do you
separate a melody from an obligatio and a piano for that matter an
instrument that has more numerical harmonics attached as one goes down the
scale in contrast to most other instruments? Then how do you assign say the
fourth harmonic of a note from one flute with the other or an orphaned
12,526Hz harmonic - who gets it?

Now if you could extract a voice buried in a symphony orchestra or rock
group, that didn't sound like it was being phoned in from Pluto the security
and other spooks would *really* be interested!! In terms of the originally
poster I think this falls into the "myth" busted category for all practical
purposes. BTW even if my original recording was stereo it still doesn't
help much... As for the Beatles tapes as others have commented they were
mostly 4 track heavily overdubbed.....

[Sue Morton]

Speaking strictly from my own experiences and observations, in one genre of
music. I have purchased hundreds of backing trax or "minus one" recordings
over the years, of contemporary Christian songs for church use.

1. Some of these are exceptional copycats, and while it can be discerned
these are not the original musicians and/or instruments, they are very close
and fool the average listener that is not intimately familiar with the
artist recording.

2. Some of these trax are of the original musicians but another recording
session, not the one that was made 'popular'. They sound slightly different
just as the copycat trax do, and the lead vocal is completely absent. In my
opinion these are a mix without the lead vocals added in.

3. On some of these trax you can hear the faint lead vocal's reverb in the
background. If I take the original artist recording and put it through the
old remove center of stereo image trick, my results sound very similar. In
my opinion that is exactly what I purchased, perhaps tweaked up a bit better
than I have done.

4. I have purcahsed "minus one" recordings that are without a doubt the
original artist's popular recording, and the lead vocals are entirely
absent. In those instances they are often marketed as "original artist
studio mixes". These seem to be the exact same airplay mix that became
popular, but without the lead vocal, and are generally the newer songs.
When the "minus one" church trax industry recently took off like wildfire
the studios responded with a very marketable by-product.

[Sue Morton]

Hi Dec,

Post by Sue Morton

Your point (4) would seem to point to the fact that UK record

Are you referring to my post? If so, I didn't mention any studios. In fact
the only trax I've purchased have been done here in the US, so I couldn't
say one way or the other about UK studios anyhow. Perhaps you were
referring to the OP's post and not my #4...?
--
Sue Morton

Post by Sue Morton
4. I have purcahsed "minus one" recordings that are without a doubt the
original artist's popular recording, and the lead vocals are entirely
absent. In those instances they are often marketed as "original artist
studio mixes". These seem to be the exact same airplay mix that became
popular, but without the lead vocal, and are generally the newer songs.
When the "minus one" church trax industry recently took off like wildfire
the studios responded with a very marketable by-product.
--
Sue Morton

I have noticed in the past year or so that back tracks bought from
High Quality companies in the UK are hard to distinguish from the
original chart hits. In fact, some would seem to still have a
smidgeon of the star's lead vocal on.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Your point (4) would seem to point to the fact that UK record
companies seem to make 'back track' versions available?
There was a small period in the 80's where the second track on a CD
would be the back track with the lead vocal missing. This practice
has been dropped, but perhaps, the record companies make this service
available to interested parties? As they may do to dub artists when
they require just the original lead vocals with no backing?
Dec [Cluskey]

[Laurence Payne]

On Fri, 7 Dec 2007 18:20:30 -0800 (PST), "Dec [Cluskey]"

The concept of musos copying existing chart toons is fully accepted
[much like the cheap versions of chart tracks available for Woolworths
in the 60's] ... but I still cannot accept 'back tracks' offered for
sale by companies where the original 'star' vocal track can be
'slightly' heard ... it is weird!
I appreciate your view on chart lead vocals being isolated and then
used in dub tracks but it still does not definitively answer my
question: "are these solo tracks available from the record releasing
companies?"

I guess you're in as good a position as anyone to use your contacts
and find out for us. Would you, please?

[Laurence Payne]

On Sat, 8 Dec 2007 08:57:36 -0800 (PST), "Dec [Cluskey]"

Yet when I listen to a live dub show on UK Radio1, particularly the
'black' and Ragga major shows, I hear soloed voices from current chart
hits with mental rhythm tracks added.
Perhaps it depends on the importance of the dub DJ ... if he is a huge
name then the record companies would let him have any solo tracks he
wants ... that is my personal take on it. I reckon those DJs are
simply not going to give away their secrets?

Maybe. But generally there are far fewer conspiricies, fewer
"secrets" than people like to imagine :-)

[Phildo]

The concept of musos copying existing chart toons is fully accepted
[much like the cheap versions of chart tracks available for Woolworths
in the 60's] ...

Little bit of trivia for you - those Woolworths records and their ilk was
actually how Elton John got started in the music industry and he appears on
quite a few of them.

I still have loads of them up in the loft which I haven't played for at
least 25 years.

Phildo

[Noel Bachelor]

Post by Chris Whealy
You have some red paint, some white paint and some blue paint and you
mix them together to form a kind of pinky-purple.
Can you un-mix the paint back to the original colours?

Paint the wall with that paint, even if it's badly mixed and swirly.
Then take a photo of that wall, and process it with filters to obtain
colour separations. Printers have been doing that for many years.

In audio terms though, that's more akin to basic crossover filtering, not
the separation of different sources with fully overlapping spectral
ranges.

Noel Bachelor noelbachelorAT(From:_domain)
Language Recordings Inc (Darwin Australia)

[o***@gmail.com]

Post by Chris Whealy

Is there a way that a mono recording, (i.e. the Beatles), can be
separated to isolate separate instrument/vocals and then apply Auto-
Tune/pitch correction or other fx?
Is it that it would take a lot of tech knowledge to execute this or
has something like this reached the point of just making the right
adjustments in a program like Cakewalk, Pro Tools, etc.?
Thanks.

No this is not possible. If it were, people would have disassembled the
Beatles as soon as the technology to do so was available.
Let me ask you the same question, but set in a different context, then
you should understand the situation better.
You have some red paint, some white paint and some blue paint and you
mix them together to form a kind of pinky-purple.
Can you un-mix the paint back to the original colours?
Chris W
--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
But the words of the wise are quiet and few.
---

be nice man,,,,,,

[Hassan Essam]

Post by o***@gmail.com

Is there a way that a mono recording, (i.e. the Beatles), can be
separated to isolate separate instrument/vocals and then apply Auto-
Tune/pitch correction or other fx?
Is it that it would take a lot of tech knowledge to execute this or
has something like this reached the point of just making the right
adjustments in a program like Cakewalk, Pro Tools, etc.?
Thanks.

No this is not possible. If it were, people would have disassembled the
Beatles as soon as the technology to do so was available.
Let me ask you the same question, but set in a different context, then
you should understand the situation better.
You have some red paint, some white paint and some blue paint and you
mix them together to form a kind of pinky-purple.
Can you un-mix the paint back to the original colours?
Chris W
--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
But the words of the wise are quiet and few.
---

be nice man,,,,,,

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I advise you to communicate with them
We used an easy style in our
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website when we have our own videos and explanations
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