Any advice would be much appreciated please

[[e-mail]]

Hi guys and girls,
I need some advise or reassurance before opening my mouth after becoming a sound tech volunteer at our local charity run theatre in the UK.
Let me explain I have been involved with both live sound mixing for bands and other musicians but never on a digital mixer may I add.
As well as working as a master of ceremonies on stage as well. Anyway I decided to retire and take it easy in August 2014 or so I thought?
Since retiring I have been in great demand as a sound tech working with various worthy charities when needed to give something back to my local community.
Last July I was approached to join this local charity theatre as a sound tech volunteer working for free. This I was really enjoying until recently when the two head tech guys started telling me I am doing my mixing all wrong as I have the gain pot far to hot in their opinion? Now I know I am 68 so maybe I may have the odd senior moment but unless I have been taught wrong about headroom and gain structure I am pretty sure it is not me who is doing this wrong, Just to explain further if I am setting up a Shure SM58 on the stage I use PFL on the Yamaha MGP 24 as I said they are a charity. I start at the top of the channel turn the gain up as the lighting guy speaks into the mic until the signal travels up to infinity unless receiving a peak volume. I then set the channel slider to just below flat (infinity) at -3db leaving me some headroom if needed and making sure by releasing PFL that there is no noise or feedback after getting the lighting guy to speak into it again this time through FOH with main slider set at infinity? I then move onto the next channel until finished mics or instruments DIs etc,
By using this trusted method I have always got a clean hot not clipping signal.

According to these two chief techs and one said yesterday he was taught this mixer headroom setup in university so it is right, and I understand he has passed it onto the other guy as he was not a pro sound tech anyway.

They set the gain pot not even to half and then struggle to get a clean signal as the more they amplify it by using eq, graphics and slider volume the more muddy it sounds.
Now as like you I don't come from a theatre or fully pro background when this method is used for a play as the theatre is quite small as it only seats 200 that is fine.
But when the acts are live music for the jazz club, blues club and other live amplified instrument performances it sounds terrible.
This has now been noticed by our regular audiences who have thanked me for the quality of sound they have heard, as also have many professional and local artists performing since I joined.
So what should I do please as they are now telling me my sound mix is too loud and I am to setup as they do?
It is not louder as I use an Audio Tools app on my phone and it never goes above 88db other than the old peak from a brass instrument to 92db.

Any replies would be most welcome both to if I am carrying out gain structure setup correctly or not, and how can I get them to realise they have got it all wrong if I am right without walking away from something I love doing. Also we have two youth trainees who are now mixing as instructed by these two and they deserve to be taught correctly if giving up their free time to learn a skill to help them become sound engineers, as well as now being told not to watch me as I am doing it all wrong!
Thanks for reading John

[cameronproaudio]

Post by ***@sky.com
Hi guys and girls,
I need some advise or reassurance before opening my mouth after becoming a sound tech volunteer at our local charity run theatre in the UK.
Let me explain I have been involved with both live sound mixing for bands and other musicians but never on a digital mixer may I add.
As well as working as a master of ceremonies on stage as well. Anyway I decided to retire and take it easy in August 2014 or so I thought?
Since retiring I have been in great demand as a sound tech working with various worthy charities when needed to give something back to my local community.
Last July I was approached to join this local charity theatre as a sound tech volunteer working for free. This I was really enjoying until recently when the two head tech guys started telling me I am doing my mixing all wrong as I have the gain pot far to hot in their opinion? Now I know I am 68 so maybe I may have the odd senior moment but unless I have been taught wrong about headroom and gain structure I am pretty sure it is not me who is doing this wrong, Just to explain further if I am setting up a Shure SM58 on the stage I use PFL on the Yamaha MGP 24 as I said they are a charity. I start at the top of the channel turn the gain up as the lighting guy speaks into the mic until the signal travels up to infinity unless receiving a peak volume. I then set the channel slider to just below flat (infinity) at -3db leaving me some headroom if needed and making sure by releasing PFL that there is no noise or feedback after getting the lighting guy to speak into it again this time through FOH with main slider set at infinity? I then move onto the next channel until finished mics or instruments DIs etc,
By using this trusted method I have always got a clean hot not clipping signal.
According to these two chief techs and one said yesterday he was taught this mixer headroom setup in university so it is right, and I understand he has passed it onto the other guy as he was not a pro sound tech anyway.
They set the gain pot not even to half and then struggle to get a clean signal as the more they amplify it by using eq, graphics and slider volume the more muddy it sounds.
Now as like you I don't come from a theatre or fully pro background when this method is used for a play as the theatre is quite small as it only seats 200 that is fine.
But when the acts are live music for the jazz club, blues club and other live amplified instrument performances it sounds terrible.
This has now been noticed by our regular audiences who have thanked me for the quality of sound they have heard, as also have many professional and local artists performing since I joined.
So what should I do please as they are now telling me my sound mix is too loud and I am to setup as they do?
It is not louder as I use an Audio Tools app on my phone and it never goes above 88db other than the old peak from a brass instrument to 92db.
Any replies would be most welcome both to if I am carrying out gain structure setup correctly or not, and how can I get them to realise they have got it all wrong if I am right without walking away from something I love doing. Also we have two youth trainees who are now mixing as instructed by these two and they deserve to be taught correctly if giving up their free time to learn a skill to help them become sound engineers, as well as now being told not to watch me as I am doing it all wrong!
Thanks for reading John

When you say "infinity," do you actually mean "unity" or zero? Infinity on most mixers is all the way down.

[t***@gmail.com]

John W wrote: "So what should I do please as they are now telling me my sound mix is too loud and I am to
setup as they do? It is not louder as I use an Audio Tools app on my phone and it never goes above 88db other
than the old peak from a brass instrument to 92db. "


I have the same challenge as you do, at my church.
It's very small, and two powered Yamahas as
wedges and two 15" active Mackies are enough
to drive the entire congregation back, out the front
door! And that's with all active speakers volume set
to twelve o'clock detent. Not that that bothers them:
It's an evangelical church - not your typical organ &
choir protestant.

Just set your mixer channels gains to peak at +3VU
in PFL, and ride your faders lower. I keep the master
fader at -5, and all the worship faders between -10
to -5.

Another option is to attenuate whatever sort of
amplification you have(active speakers, or, amps
+ passive speakers). After turning those down, you
can have unity gain and run faders normally, between
-5 to +5, and still not be too loud for your audience or
venue management.

[None]

<sneck>

You probably shouldn't take Thekma's advice about gain staging. He has
conclusively proven that has no idea what gain staging is, or how it
works. On this subject, your best bet is to completely ignore him.

[t***@gmail.com]

wrote: "You probably shouldn't take Thekma's advice about gain staging. He has "

Tell that to my PASTOR, how I know "nothing" about
sound, thread-crapper! And what advice have YOU
offered?!

[None]

Post by t***@gmail.com
wrote: "You probably shouldn't take Thekma's advice about gain staging. He has "
Tell that to my PASTOR, how I know "nothing" about sound,

What does your pastor know about gain staging? What if I spell pastor
in kooky-kaps-lock ... does that make him an expert? Why would I even
want to talk to him? Am I supposed to stalk him, the way you stalk me?

Post by t***@gmail.com
And what advice have YOU offered?!

Don't take Theckma's advice about gain staging. Sound advice. I was
quite clear about that, but then there's your reading comprehension
problem. TWIWATOP. Right, li'l buddy?

[t***@gmail.com]

N :

So what's YOUR method of gain-staging? What
advice do you have for THAT?

[None]

So what's YOUR method of gain-staging? What advice do you have for
THAT?

My advice is this: don't take any advice from Theckma on the subject
of gain staging. He has no understanding of gain staging. How many
times will I have to repeat this advice for you, li'l buddy, before
you stop asking the same question repeatedly? YSYCEATAT, BYASBDF.

[t***@gmail.com]

"My advice is this: don't take any advice from Theckma on the subject
of gain staging"


So you just admitted you know nothing about it!!

[None]

Post by t***@gmail.com
"My advice is this: don't take any advice from Theckma on the
subject
of gain staging"
So you just admitted you know nothing about it!!

There's that reading comprehension problem, again. I admitted no such
thing, but that won't stop a dumbfuck like you from lying about it.
YASBDFLSIOS,ALB? SBDF!

[p***@hotmail.com]

Post by None

Post by t***@gmail.com
"My advice is this: don't take any advice from Theckma on the subject
of gain staging"
So you just admitted you know nothing about it!!

There's that reading comprehension problem, again. I admitted no such
thing, but that won't stop a dumbfuck like you from lying about it.
YASBDFLSIOS,ALB? SBDF!

DO YOU SPEAK ENGLISH ????

[Richard Heathfield]

So what's YOUR method of gain-staging? What advice do you have for THAT?

My advice is this: don't take any advice from Theckma on the subject of
gain staging.

Then your advice is unhelpful except in a negative way. It would be more
constructive to explain which parts of Theckma's advice are incorrect,
/why/ they are incorrect, and what should be done instead, and /why/ it
should be done instead. And if Theckma disagrees, a discussion could
ensue that may well be profitable to you, to him, or even to both of you.

Obviously you don't have to do that, but would it cost you so very much
to share?

[p***@hotmail.com]

Post by ***@sky.com
Hi guys and girls,
I need some advise or reassurance before opening my mouth after becoming a > sound tech volunteer at our local charity run theatre in the UK.

I'll repeat what Cameronproaudio said "
When you say "infinity," do you actually mean "unity" or zero? Infinity on most mixers is all the way down." It's a BIG difference.

I'm not familiar with the Yamaha MGP 24 and not keen on digital mixers generally, since they often seem to have been designed by theoreticians instead of real world mixing guys and the EQ is often crap, never mind getting into 'layers'.

For example, my own designs usually had 10dB 'gain in hand' on channels and 5dB on the masters or groups to allow level trimming when mixing. Recording mixers normally don't have the 5 dB 'gain in hand' on groups or masters because of a different style of use.

If the Yamaha MGP 24 has 0dB at the top of every fader, it's a design eff-up and has the potential to massively screw up the gain staging when actually mixing. Please respond, answering the above only. The amps, speakers etc are an irrelevance to gain structure in the desk including an analogue one.

Regards, Graham

[p***@hotmail.com]

According to these two chief techs and one said yesterday he was taught this >mixer headroom setup in university so it is right, and I understand he has >passed it onto the other guy as he was not a pro sound tech anyway.

I've seen the crap often taught at Unis by lecturers who are airheads. Almost always their 'advice' is so wrong it's beyond belief !

BTW, I built my first 'semi-pro' mixer in 1971 which performed brilliantly for the 20 or so active years of use it saw and I've designed desks for plenty since. You may have heard of Neve for example, although most of my designs were for live use, mainly for Studiomaster, when it still had some well acknowledged credibility.

Graham (Stevenson)

[p***@hotmail.com]

Post by ***@sky.com
They set the gain pot not even to half and then struggle to get a clean signal as the more they amplify it by using eq, graphics and slider volume the more muddy it sounds.
Now as like you I don't come from a theatre or fully pro background when this method is used for a play as the theatre is quite small as it only seats 200 that is fine.
But when the acts are live music for the jazz club, blues club and other live amplified instrument performances it sounds terrible.
This has now been noticed by our regular audiences who have thanked me for the quality of sound they have heard, as also have many professional and local artists performing since I joined.

I'm laughing at the first sentence already. It's just TOO funny. DAMN graphic EQs. They are a blunt instrument that people who know nothing tell us we MUST have. I never needed one ! The centre frequencies are invariably in the wrong places (although White in the USA did make one with centre frequency trim). If you're thinking of eliminating feedback, the slope is too low for it to be useful. The answer is to use a variable Q parametric EQ if that's your plan. There should be a law against graphics ! They normally serve merely to 'muddle' the mix, as you say. I have genuinely had to 'recover' a mix where the clown on the desk had pulled ALL the frequencies. <sigh> That doesn't even leave a flat response, instead one that resembles a road with 32 speed humps.

To put it simply, it seems clear to me that you know far more about mixing than anyone else there.

Now get me started on SM58s (spit).

Graham