Why Bother?

[Steve M]

So, I've been helping out a bit at a new venue in the area. I helped with
wiring and installing the PA, though
they should have contacted me before they bought anything. They didn't do
too bad. I have also been filling in to
mix when the regular house guy needs a night off. The system is mainly QSC
KW series boxes and the whole rig
is mixed and processed with a Soundcraft Compact 32 console.
Last night they had an act in that brought their own console (Avid Venue
SC48) and FOH guy. It sounded like total crap.
Why bother hauling in extra gear and paying a guy to mix when he does your
sound a disservice?
If I was the manager or FOH guy at the venue I would have really gotten on
his case. The punters don't know why it sounds bad,
they just know what they hear. End result is a bad rep for the club and a
less than good experience for the paying customers.
I'm glad I didn't pay to get in.

Sidenote: I'm not a big fan of the Soundcraft console. Access to some
functions are at cross purposes.

--
Steve McQ

[t***@gmail.com]

SteveMQ: "KW series boxes and the whole rig
is mixed and processed with a Soundcraft Compact 32 console.
Last night they had an act in that brought their own console (Avid Venue
SC48) and FOH guy. It sounded like total crap.
Why bother hauling in extra gear and paying a guy to mix when he does your "

I don't understand why posts like this don't generate conversation, vs some of the smut on here that does(!)

This is really insightful Steve - a good "gig from hell" story. Thanks for sharing!

[Richard Webb]

Post by t***@gmail.com
This is really insightful Steve - a good "gig from hell" story.
Thanks for sharing!

I think the reason it didn't elicit much comment is that
most of us have been there one time or another.

Regards,
Richard
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[Rupert]

Post by Richard Webb

Post by t***@gmail.com
This is really insightful Steve - a good "gig from hell" story.
Thanks for sharing!

I think the reason it didn't elicit much comment is that
most of us have been there one time or another.

Agreed. Good & bad bands get their sound hosed by their sound mixers all the time. I'll always remember the Sabbath reunion tour with Ozzie around 10 years ago with Pantera opening. Pantera sounded great. Sabbath came out and their sound guy proceeded to destroy the audio and probably the PA. I could hear a lot of clipping and drivers bottoming out. Nothing like hearing the kick drum go "crunch" on every hit from drivers smacking the back plate.

[Steve M]

Post by t***@gmail.com
I don't understand why posts like this don't generate conversation, vs
some of the smut on here that does(!)
This is really insightful Steve - a good "gig from hell" story. Thanks for sharing!

Well, like I said previously....it wasn't my "gig". I was just hanging out
drinking beer on the house.
Also, the person whose band it was is a friend of mine. I did not get to
speak to him that night but
at some point I will tell him what I thought of his hired hand's
performance. Friends mentioned how bad it
sounded, and as I said, they didn't know the situation. They just asked why
the sound at (venue) is so bad.
My other reason for posting the story was to illustrate the scenario someone
else mentioned.
That being how a system with a $6000 console can sound just fine, yet the
guy 'driving' the $30,000 Avid made
a mess of it.

--
Steve McQ

[Arny Krueger]

Post by Steve M
So, I've been helping out a bit at a new venue in the area. I helped with
wiring and installing the PA, though
they should have contacted me before they bought anything. They didn't do
too bad. I have also been filling in to
mix when the regular house guy needs a night off. The system is mainly QSC
KW series boxes and the whole rig
is mixed and processed with a Soundcraft Compact 32 console.
Last night they had an act in that brought their own console (Avid Venue
SC48) and FOH guy. It sounded like total crap.
Why bother hauling in extra gear and paying a guy to mix when he does your
sound a disservice?

Because not everybody has a house mixer and equipment as good as the one at
your venue.

They don't have time to do a thorough evaluation of every venue they play,
so they have adopted their one-size-fits-all solution. If a local mixer gets
crushed in the process and their sound is mediocre, they are willing to
accept that risk. In the bigger scheme of thing their option is something
even worse.

If you got paid for the night anyway then love it, and if they laid you off
for that night, at least you've got the past and future business from them.

[Richard Webb]

On Mon 2012-Sep-24 10:52, Arny Krueger writes:
<snip>

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Steve M
Why bother hauling in extra gear and paying a guy to mix when he does your
sound a disservice?

Because not everybody has a house mixer and equipment as good as the
one at your venue.

Agreed.

Post by Arny Krueger
They don't have time to do a thorough evaluation of every venue they

"> play, so they have adopted their one-size-fits-all solution. If a
"> local mixer gets crushed in the process and their sound is
"> mediocre, they are willing to accept that risk. In the bigger
"> scheme of thing their option is something even worse.

Indeed they are, but that doesn't mean it doesn't frustrate
the pros.

When working for a company supplying gear it's frustrating
as well to mix the opener only to have the touring foh guy
with the headliner step up to the controls and do them a
disservice in the process. I've been there myself. All you can do, as Arnie notes, is grin and take the money if you
got paid. Doesn't make it any less frustrating or
disappointing, but bank the money call it even.

When I run across that situation I just shake my head and
say the usual "oh well" and move on. I still recall similar situation way back when, mid-80's, glad I didn't pay for a
ticket, wouldn't have to hear either act, but Bon Jovi and
.38 special. Bon Jovi sounded nice and clean, you could
hear and understand the vocals, well mixed.

the headliner comes on, sound turns to shit. Yes, it was in a basketball venue, but still, Bon JOvi sounded much better
than the headliner in the cheap seats. I don't recall
whether our local did foh for them or they brought their own guy though.

Part of the problem was the foh guy for .38 special tried to overwhelm you with volume, kind of like Rupert's discussion
of Black Sabbath posted yesterday. Clip lights had to be
lighting up all over that console during .38 special, and
it sounded to me like this dude was going for maximum mud.
That's what makes me think one of our locals was on foh for
Bon JOvi, we know that venue, easy enough to overwhelm that
big barn with volume.

Regards,
Richard
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[Flint]

Post by Richard Webb
<snip>

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by Steve M
Why bother hauling in extra gear and paying a guy to mix when he does your
sound a disservice?

Because not everybody has a house mixer and equipment as good as the
one at your venue.

Agreed.

Post by Arny Krueger
They don't have time to do a thorough evaluation of every venue they

"> play, so they have adopted their one-size-fits-all solution. If a
"> local mixer gets crushed in the process and their sound is
"> mediocre, they are willing to accept that risk. In the bigger
"> scheme of thing their option is something even worse.
Indeed they are, but that doesn't mean it doesn't frustrate
the pros.
When working for a company supplying gear it's frustrating
as well to mix the opener only to have the touring foh guy
with the headliner step up to the controls and do them a
disservice in the process. I've been there myself. All you can do, as Arnie notes, is grin and take the money if you
got paid. Doesn't make it any less frustrating or
disappointing, but bank the money call it even.
When I run across that situation I just shake my head and
say the usual "oh well" and move on. I still recall similar situation way back when, mid-80's, glad I didn't pay for a
ticket, wouldn't have to hear either act, but Bon Jovi and
.38 special. Bon Jovi sounded nice and clean, you could
hear and understand the vocals, well mixed.
the headliner comes on, sound turns to shit. Yes, it was in a basketball venue, but still, Bon JOvi sounded much better
than the headliner in the cheap seats. I don't recall
whether our local did foh for them or they brought their own guy though.

If it was mid 80's, Jon brought his own FOH guy - Obie O'Brien. Obie
is one talented engineer. I had the opportunity to work with him and
Lance Quinn on a project at the Warehouse Studio back then.

Post by Richard Webb
Part of the problem was the foh guy for .38 special tried to overwhelm you with volume, kind of like Rupert's discussion
of Black Sabbath posted yesterday. Clip lights had to be
lighting up all over that console during .38 special, and
it sounded to me like this dude was going for maximum mud.
That's what makes me think one of our locals was on foh for
Bon JOvi, we know that venue, easy enough to overwhelm that
big barn with volume.
Regards,
Richard
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[Richard Webb]

On Mon 2012-Sep-24 19:13, Flint writes:
<snip>

Post by Richard Webb

Post by Richard Webb
say the usual "oh well" and move on. I still recall similar situation way
back when, mid-80's, glad I didn't pay for a
ticket, wouldn't have to hear either act, but Bon Jovi and

.38 special. Bon Jovi sounded nice and clean, you could

Post by Richard Webb
hear and understand the vocals, well mixed.
the headliner comes on, sound turns to shit. Yes, it was in a basketball
venue, but still, Bon JOvi sounded much better
than the headliner in the cheap seats. I don't recall
whether our local did foh for them or they brought their own guy though.

If it was mid 80's, Jon brought his own FOH guy - Obie O'Brien. Obie
is one talented engineer. I had the opportunity to work with him and
Lance Quinn on a project at the Warehouse Studio back then.

Ah probably was, cause it was mid-eighties. The guy
definitely was good. NIce clean mix, all the elements where they should be, vocals understandable. John could be proud
of his foh guy for sure.



Regards,
Richard
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[Steve M]

I wouldn't have seen Arnii's stupid reply if Richard hadn't quoted it.

Post by Richard Webb

Post by Arny Krueger
Because not everybody has a house mixer and equipment as good as the
one at your venue.

Who said it was "my" venue? I'm pretty sure I stated the opposite.

Post by Richard Webb

Post by Arny Krueger
They don't have time to do a thorough evaluation of every venue they

"> play,

More evidence of his lack of real world experience. There's a thing called
advancing a show.
Guest engineer contacts venue and if the rig is satisfactory there's no need
to bring in extra gear.
Anyone who's been house engineer at a venue knows this procedure. There's a
thing called a tech rider
and it's up to the house guy to hash out the details with the band's rep
well in advance of a show.
I know this because I've probably had to review and comply with a few
thousand of them over the years.

Anyway, Arnii once again shows his lack of knowledge and his inability to
read and comprehend
plain English. He just likes to spout off on things he's never done.

--
Steve McQ

[Richard Webb]

Post by Steve M
More evidence of his lack of real world experience. There's a thing
called advancing a show.
Guest engineer contacts venue and if the rig is satisfactory there's
no need to bring in extra gear.
Anyone who's been house engineer at a venue knows this procedure.
There's a thing called a tech rider
and it's up to the house guy to hash out the details with the band's
rep well in advance of a show.
I know this because I've probably had to review and comply with a
few thousand of them over the years.

INdeed, one of the points I initially meant to make when I
got distracted by other parts of the post. But, you have to admit, some folks do a better job of advancing shows than
others, especially those who are less experienced.



Regards,
Richard
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[Steve M]

Post by Richard Webb
some folks do a better job of advancing shows than
others, especially those who are less experienced.

Or, those who have no experience. Like Arnii, who's probably never had to
read a tech rider in his entire life.

Still, that doesn't prevent him from spouting off
on things he hasn't the slightest clue about.

--
Steve McQ

[Mickey Langan]

Post by Steve M
More evidence of his lack of real world experience. There's a thing
called advancing a show.
Guest engineer contacts venue and if the rig is satisfactory there's
no need to bring in extra gear.
Anyone who's been house engineer at a venue knows this procedure.
There's a thing called a tech rider
and it's up to the house guy to hash out the details with the band's
rep well in advance of a show.
I know this because I've probably had to review and comply with a
few thousand of them over the years.

INdeed, one of the points I initially meant to make when I got
distracted by other parts of the post. But, you have to admit, some
folks do a better job of advancing shows than others, especially
those who are less experienced.

Anyone ever get burned by someone who talks a good game, but doesn't
have the skill to deliver?

[dsdennysound]

Post by Mickey Langan

Post by Steve M
More evidence of his lack of real world experience. There's a thing
called  advancing a show.
Guest engineer contacts venue and if the rig is satisfactory there's
no need  to bring in extra gear.
Anyone who's been house engineer at a venue knows this procedure.
There's a  thing called a tech rider
and it's up to the house guy to hash out the details with the band's
rep  well in advance of a show.
I know this because I've probably had to review and comply with a
few  thousand of them over the years.

Well, as both guest engineer & house engineer, I've learned a few
things. As guest engineer, you absolutely never know what you have to
work with until you see it. And as house engineer ... DITTO! And you
need to be fast on your feet & resolve yourself to play the hand you
are dealt. No amount of bitching will change anything.

Post by Mickey Langan

INdeed, one of the points I initially meant to make when I got
distracted by other parts of the post. But, you have to admit, some
folks do a better job of advancing shows than others, especially
those who are less experienced.

Anyone ever get burned by someone who talks a good game, but doesn't
have the skill to deliver?

I've been burned by many people, But it has seldom been by some
halfwit pretender. I'd be embarrassed if it was. And, I have been
embarrassed in the past. If I was embarrassed by some halfwit
pretender, it was myself who embarrassed me.

Post by Mickey Langan
--
Mickey
I am a great believer in luck, and I find that the harder I work
the more luck I have. -- Thomas Jefferson

[Denny Strauser]

<snipped>

I had an interesting night on Tuesday working a Pegi Young show.

I work about 2/3 of the shows in a small (150 capacity) but upscale
Pittsburgh club. On Tuesday I showed up to see a tour bus parked in
front of the club. As the FOH engineer & guitar tech were setting up the
stage I asked, what kind of music does the band play. The FOH engineer
said, "It is a bit country sounding, like Neil Young, which is to be
expected." I asked if they were related. He said Pegi is Neil's wife.

This small club has EAW 650 FOH speakers (1 per side). They brought in
their own L-Acoustics sidefills. Those sidefills could put out more than
our FOH system.

I usually hate when touring acts bring in their own sound engineer,
because in most cases, I know I could do a better job. But their sound
engineer did a fine job. George, their FOH engineer mixed sound for
America back when they were a BIG deal. He has mixed sound for the
Eagles. And he spent 22 years mixing FOH for Whitney Houston.

It was a good night, but a low audience turnout.

- Denny

[Steve M]

Post by Denny Strauser
I usually hate when touring acts bring in their own sound engineer,
because in most cases, I know I could do a better job.

You're beginning to sound like Gleason. ;-)

--
Steve McQ

[Denny Strauser]

Post by Steve M

Post by Denny Strauser
I usually hate when touring acts bring in their own sound engineer,
because in most cases, I know I could do a better job.

You're beginning to sound like Gleason. ;-)
Steve McQ

Not quite true. George is a friend of mine. He would rather a band
brings in their own sound engineer. He likes owning the sound system. He
likes to sit back & watch. Quite true!

- Denny

[Steve M]

Post by Denny Strauser
George is a friend of mine.

I know.
But, if you saw the email he sent me a few years ago you'd know why I made
that crack.

--
Steve McQ

[Richard Webb]

Post by Denny Strauser

Post by Steve M

Post by Denny Strauser
because in most cases, I know I could do a better job.

You're beginning to sound like Gleason. ;-)

Not quite true. George is a friend of mine. He would rather a band
brings in their own sound engineer. He likes owning the sound
system. He likes to sit back & watch. Quite true!

Yep that's pretty much my reading of George from knowing him via usenet. So long as those folks are competent George
would rather take pride in owning a good system for them to
use, and enjoy the show.
IT's when they're not quite competent that George is
disappointed that he didn't do it himself.



Regards,
Richard
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[Flint]

Post by Steve M
So, I've been helping out a bit at a new venue in the area. I helped with
wiring and installing the PA, though
they should have contacted me before they bought anything. They didn't do
too bad. I have also been filling in to
mix when the regular house guy needs a night off. The system is mainly QSC
KW series boxes and the whole rig
is mixed and processed with a Soundcraft Compact 32 console.
Last night they had an act in that brought their own console (Avid Venue
SC48) and FOH guy. It sounded like total crap.
Why bother hauling in extra gear and paying a guy to mix when he does your
sound a disservice?
If I was the manager or FOH guy at the venue I would have really gotten on
his case. The punters don't know why it sounds bad,
they just know what they hear. End result is a bad rep for the club and a
less than good experience for the paying customers.
I'm glad I didn't pay to get in.
Sidenote: I'm not a big fan of the Soundcraft console. Access to some
functions are at cross purposes.

Yes, sounds as if perhaps they're a bit too much for you.

Post by Steve M
--
Steve McQ

[Steve M]

Post by Flint
Yes, sounds as if perhaps they're a bit too much for you.

Incorrect.
But, you're entitled to your ill conceived opinion, I guess...

--
Steve McQ