Discussion:
Amp spec based on speaker Continuous or Program power rating ?
(too old to reply)
Sidhu
2007-03-07 19:25:00 UTC
Permalink
Hello!

While i read that an amp should ideally output twice the speaker
Continuous power rating, i need a little clarification.

The JBL VRX 932 specs state a Continuous power rating of 800W, Program
of 1600W.

Can i just ignore the program power rating ? Cause i presume this to
be the real world situation. Now, I plan to rig 2 VRX932 speakers per
side. This gives me a total continuos power rating of 1600W @ 4ohms.
This sustem would be regularly called upon to deliver very heay metal
music. If I were to go with Crown amplification, would a 3000W per
channel @ 4ohms suffice ? Or am i better off with a higher model
outputting 4000watts.

Even though i would much appreciate any amplifier advice.

Thank you,
Sidhu

p.s. If it is the program power that i need to take into
consideration, then i guess im pretty much looking at running my amps
bridged....
liquidator
2007-03-07 23:44:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sidhu
Hello!
While i read that an amp should ideally output twice the speaker
Continuous power rating, i need a little clarification.
The JBL VRX 932 specs state a Continuous power rating of 800W, Program
of 1600W.
Can i just ignore the program power rating ? Cause i presume this to
be the real world situation. Now, I plan to rig 2 VRX932 speakers per
This sustem would be regularly called upon to deliver very heay metal
music. If I were to go with Crown amplification, would a 3000W per
outputting 4000watts.
Even though i would much appreciate any amplifier advice.
Thank you,
Sidhu
p.s. If it is the program power that i need to take into
consideration, then i guess im pretty much looking at running my amps
bridged....
In simple terms, music is not contious. It's off and on. So the speaker can
generally handle more power than the rating.

You have 800 watt speakers. If you feed them 1600 watts and DO NOT CLIP THE
AMPS you will have better sound than if you feed them 800 watts and clip the
amps.

If you are not clipping the amps at 800 watts there will only be a marginal
improvement.

Comes down to how loud you play. The moral is, more unclipped is better than
less clipped. But if it's unclipped anyway don't worry about it.

On the othe hand you are talking heavy metal. If you are feeding the speaks
more than the reated 800 be careful. Be very careful if you go beyond 1600.

If you are clipping at that level, get more speaker AND amp. You don't have
an adequate PA in that case.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Phil Allison
2007-03-08 04:35:23 UTC
Permalink
"Sidhu" <***@indiatimes.com> wrote in message news:***@t69g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...

** Groper alert !
Post by Sidhu
This sustem would be regularly called upon to deliver very heay metal
music.
** This for a PA system or a disco ?

Portable or installed ?

Indoor or outdoor use ?

You planning on using sub woofers ?



..... Phil
n***@gmail.com
2007-03-09 08:17:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Allison
** Groper alert !
Post by Sidhu
This sustem would be regularly called upon to deliver very heay metal
music.
** This for a PA system or a disco ?
Portable or installed ?
Indoor or outdoor use ?
You planning on using sub woofers ?
..... Phil
Hey!

It's a PA system, not for playback, live sound, installed. Plan to
hook up a pair of JBL 728 subs with it.


Thanks!
Sidhu
Sidhu
2007-03-21 14:05:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by n***@gmail.com
Post by Phil Allison
** Groper alert !
Post by Sidhu
This sustem would be regularly called upon to deliver very heay metal
music.
** This for a PA system or a disco ?
Portable or installed ?
Indoor or outdoor use ?
You planning on using sub woofers ?
..... Phil
Hey!
It's a PA system, not for playback, live sound, installed. Plan to
hook up a pair of JBL 728 subs with it.
Thanks!
Sidhu
Hello... It's been a while. So to restate. I plan on setting up the
following.
installed, Indoor use, Live music, will be called upon to play very
loud on occasion.


4 x JBL VRX 932 Tops, Left-Right flown array. (2 tops a side, wired in
parallel)
2 x JBL SRX 728 Subs, Ground Stacked
Rigging assembley x 2

5 x JBL SRX 712M


->Crossover & Amplification :

4 x Crown Audio I-T6000 (for the VRX932 tops)
2 x Crown Audio I-T8000 (for the SRX 728 subs)
1 x dbx Driverack 260 (or the Behringer ULTRA-CURVE PRO DSP8024 since
the I-tech amps have built in crossovers)

We need to rig the tops from the ceiling to save ground space, and
have a longer throw. Ceiling height is approx. 12ft.

Please comment on the same.

Cheers!
Sidhu
t***@peoplepc.com
2007-03-21 14:13:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sidhu
Post by n***@gmail.com
Post by Phil Allison
** Groper alert !
Post by Sidhu
This sustem would be regularly called upon to deliver very heay metal
music.
** This for a PA system or a disco ?
Portable or installed ?
Indoor or outdoor use ?
You planning on using sub woofers ?
..... Phil
Hey!
It's a PA system, not for playback, live sound, installed. Plan to
hook up a pair of JBL 728 subs with it.
Thanks!
Sidhu
Hello... It's been a while. So to restate. I plan on setting up the
following.
installed, Indoor use, Live music, will be called upon to play very
loud on occasion.
4 x JBL VRX 932 Tops, Left-Right flown array. (2 tops a side, wired in
parallel)
2 x JBL SRX 728 Subs, Ground Stacked
Rigging assembley x 2
5 x JBL SRX 712M
4 x Crown Audio I-T6000 (for the VRX932 tops)
2 x Crown Audio I-T8000 (for the SRX 728 subs)
1 x dbx Driverack 260 (or the Behringer ULTRA-CURVE PRO DSP8024 since
the I-tech amps have built in crossovers)
the 8024 is not a user friendly unit, the 260 is aPOS(I have owned both)
for speaker processing, protection and alignment get the dcx2496
for system eq get the deq2496

if your committed to the drive rack, as it does have jbl presets, get the
480
I have no experiance with the speakers but my opinon of jbl is they make a
few really great units but the majority of thier offerings are rubbish
Higher end MI there is eaw LA series that should satisy any small club need
otherwise look that the eaw 650/la400's
I don't trust crown amps
for high end full featured amps I like qsc
for basic amplification I would go with behringer
both are better at thier intended uses than any crown
IMO
george
Sidhu
2007-03-21 15:00:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@peoplepc.com
Post by Sidhu
Post by n***@gmail.com
Post by Phil Allison
** Groper alert !
Post by Sidhu
This sustem would be regularly called upon to deliver very heay metal
music.
** This for a PA system or a disco ?
Portable or installed ?
Indoor or outdoor use ?
You planning on using sub woofers ?
..... Phil
Hey!
It's a PA system, not for playback, live sound, installed. Plan to
hook up a pair of JBL 728 subs with it.
Thanks!
Sidhu
Hello... It's been a while. So to restate. I plan on setting up the
following.
installed, Indoor use, Live music, will be called upon to play very
loud on occasion.
4 x JBL VRX 932 Tops, Left-Right flown array. (2 tops a side, wired in
parallel)
2 x JBL SRX 728 Subs, Ground Stacked
Rigging assembley x 2
5 x JBL SRX 712M
4 x Crown Audio I-T6000 (for the VRX932 tops)
2 x Crown Audio I-T8000 (for the SRX 728 subs)
1 x dbx Driverack 260 (or the Behringer ULTRA-CURVE PRO DSP8024 since
the I-tech amps have built in crossovers)
the 8024 is not a user friendly unit, the 260 is aPOS(I have owned both)
for speaker processing, protection and alignment get the dcx2496
for system eq get the deq2496
if your committed to the drive rack, as it does have jbl presets, get the
480
I have no experiance with the speakers but my opinon of jbl is they make a
few really great units but the majority of thier offerings are rubbish
Higher end MI there is eaw LA series that should satisy any small club need
otherwise look that the eaw 650/la400's
I don't trust crown amps
for high end full featured amps I like qsc
for basic amplification I would go with behringer
both are better at thier intended uses than any crown
IMO
george
Thank you very much!!! I'll look into your suggestions.

Cheers!
Sidhu
Bob Urz
2007-03-21 15:44:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sidhu
Post by n***@gmail.com
Post by Phil Allison
** Groper alert !
Post by Sidhu
This sustem would be regularly called upon to deliver very heay metal
music.
** This for a PA system or a disco ?
Portable or installed ?
Indoor or outdoor use ?
You planning on using sub woofers ?
..... Phil
Hey!
It's a PA system, not for playback, live sound, installed. Plan to
hook up a pair of JBL 728 subs with it.
Thanks!
Sidhu
Hello... It's been a while. So to restate. I plan on setting up the
following.
installed, Indoor use, Live music, will be called upon to play very
loud on occasion.
4 x JBL VRX 932 Tops, Left-Right flown array. (2 tops a side, wired in
parallel)
I have used the 932 tops both bi-amped and passive. If your really
pushing them, Bi-amped is the way to go. I have used both a 260 and
a drive rack PA with them with acceptable results.

Here is a link to the tuning:

http://jblpro.com/products/portablesound/vrx/VRX%20tunings.zip

http://www.dbxpro.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=432&sid=f63b9a9e14fdeb2b7b886904cccfb6a4


There is also a three position switch switch if you use them passive to
make them brighter. Make sure the switch on the back is properly set to
passive or active.
Post by Sidhu
2 x JBL SRX 728 Subs, Ground Stacked
Rigging assembley x 2
Why are you not using the VRX subs with them?. the 900's will rig
directly to the tops if you fly them.


Or what we do at the Holland in the big room is use two of the 900 subs
with a mount pole on the top sub and have two VRX on the top triamped.
No rigging required. For what it is its a potent little system.
Post by Sidhu
5 x JBL SRX 712M
4 x Crown Audio I-T6000 (for the VRX932 tops)
2 x Crown Audio I-T8000 (for the SRX 728 subs)
1 x dbx Driverack 260 (or the Behringer ULTRA-CURVE PRO DSP8024 since
the I-tech amps have built in crossovers)
We need to rig the tops from the ceiling to save ground space, and
have a longer throw. Ceiling height is approx. 12ft.
The fly bar is at least $500 each for them. If your flying the tops
only, you can buy metric (M10 ?) hardened shoulder eye bolts and screw
them in the top fly points and fly them. You might need to pull them
back with tie line if you need a downward tilt. They hang fairly neutral
if you do it this way.

If your creative, you can design your own bumper. I am looking into
that issue now.... ;)



Bob
Post by Sidhu
Please comment on the same.
Cheers!
Sidhu
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Sidhu
2007-03-21 17:45:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Urz
Post by Sidhu
Post by n***@gmail.com
Post by Phil Allison
** Groper alert !
Post by Sidhu
This sustem would be regularly called upon to deliver very heay metal
music.
** This for a PA system or a disco ?
Portable or installed ?
Indoor or outdoor use ?
You planning on using sub woofers ?
..... Phil
Hey!
It's a PA system, not for playback, live sound, installed. Plan to
hook up a pair of JBL 728 subs with it.
Thanks!
Sidhu
Hello... It's been a while. So to restate. I plan on setting up the
following.
installed, Indoor use, Live music, will be called upon to play very
loud on occasion.
4 x JBL VRX 932 Tops, Left-Right flown array. (2 tops a side, wired in
parallel)
I have used the 932 tops both bi-amped and passive. If your really
pushing them, Bi-amped is the way to go. I have used both a 260 and
a drive rack PA with them with acceptable results.
http://jblpro.com/products/portablesound/vrx/VRX%20tunings.zip
http://www.dbxpro.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=432&sid=f63b9a9e14fdeb2b7...
There is also a three position switch switch if you use them passive to
make them brighter. Make sure the switch on the back is properly set to
passive or active.
Post by Sidhu
2 x JBL SRX 728 Subs, Ground Stacked
Rigging assembley x 2
Why are you not using the VRX subs with them?. the 900's will rig
directly to the tops if you fly them.
Or what we do at the Holland in the big room is use two of the 900 subs
with a mount pole on the top sub and have two VRX on the top triamped.
No rigging required. For what it is its a potent little system.
Post by Sidhu
5 x JBL SRX 712M
4 x Crown Audio I-T6000 (for the VRX932 tops)
2 x Crown Audio I-T8000 (for the SRX 728 subs)
1 x dbx Driverack 260 (or the Behringer ULTRA-CURVE PRO DSP8024 since
the I-tech amps have built in crossovers)
We need to rig the tops from the ceiling to save ground space, and
have a longer throw. Ceiling height is approx. 12ft.
The fly bar is at least $500 each for them. If your flying the tops
only, you can buy metric (M10 ?) hardened shoulder eye bolts and screw
them in the top fly points and fly them. You might need to pull them
back with tie line if you need a downward tilt. They hang fairly neutral
if you do it this way.
If your creative, you can design your own bumper. I am looking into
that issue now.... ;)
Bob
Post by Sidhu
Please comment on the same.
Cheers!
Sidhu
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----http://www.newsfeeds.comThe #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
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Hey Bob.. thanks for taking the time. I agree, it is a very potent
system for it's size, and i think it sounds good too. Thats why im
pushing for it.

Their are two reasons why im not opting for the VRX subs. One is that
I do not have the ceiling height to fly the subs along with the VRX
tops, unless i fly them next to each other, as oppsed to within the
same stack of sub/tops. Two, budget constraints. And the SRX subs,
Which i use with the VRX tops all the time, sound pretty decent too.

for our regular club gigs we tripod mount two VRX speakers each side,
but since this is an installation, we would like to see them flown.
It's one the main that ive been selling the VRX to my client.
.
There is a small mistake in my previous posting where i mentioned
specs. I will use one I-Tech8000 for the Tops (Stereo @ 4ohms), and
one I-Tech8000 for the bins (again in stereo). This model gives 4000W
stereo at 4ohms. I hope to be covered. The JBL VRX tops are specd. at
800W continuous. But amplification is my main worry point right now. I
find the I-Techs to a be a bit of an overkill. I plan to run the
system passive, but i would really appreciate it if someone could
suggest some poweramp models that work well with this setup, both
passive and Bi-amped.

The 5 JBL SRX721M will be used as wedges, amplification suggestions
for these too ?>??? I'll e looking at QSC.

As for speakers, I think the EAW KF series (650) would get really over
the top for this venue. And our idea is to keep the system as slick as
possible, while the LA 215's etc are very good speakers, we really
want to fly somethin small. And everyone is usually quite happy with
the VRX series, except for im yet to find an amp for them... hehe..
ill also look into the Beringer products for stage wedge amplification
and crossover solutions. Ive heard good things about their new system
controller, but again, if im investing in the I-Tech from Crown, i
dont hink ill need a system controller. Thats why id just like a good
RTA/FBD/EQ solutionj such as the 8024 .

Cheers!
Sidhu
t***@peoplepc.com
2007-03-21 17:53:44 UTC
Permalink
Thats why id just like a good
Post by Sidhu
RTA/FBD/EQ solutionj such as the 8024 .
you will hate the 8024
rta/fbd/eq the deq 2496 ROCKS
get the ecm 8000 measurment mic as well
very powerful and easy as dropping a rock to use

I would look at the powerlights from QSC
I have some going on 10 years old, ROCK solid, run cool, sound fantastic and
are considerably less than the crowns
another thing for the powerlights
if you do need factory service it is not a 100$ bill in shipping each way
light weight= low shipping costs
george
Sidhu
2007-03-21 20:43:44 UTC
Permalink
Thats why id just like a good> RTA/FBD/EQ solutionj such as the 8024 .
you will hate the 8024
rta/fbd/eq the deq 2496 ROCKS
get the ecm 8000 measurment mic as well
very powerful and easy as dropping a rock to use
I would look at the powerlights from QSC
I have some going on 10 years old, ROCK solid, run cool, sound fantastic and
are considerably less than the crowns
another thing for the powerlights
if you do need factory service it is not a 100$ bill in shipping each way
light weight= low shipping costs
george
Thats cool. Im not very fond of the 8024 myself, only wasnt aware that
thre was a better solution, since with the I-Techs i did not need a
crossover, limiter solution.... As for amps, ill look into the QSC's
too... Thanks a ton!!

So as a solution u suggest, QSC amplifiers to drive the PA, QSC or
Behringers for the Wedges... and the DCX 2496 as a system
controller...

Cheers!
Sidhu
t***@peoplepc.com
2007-03-21 21:19:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sidhu
Thats why id just like a good> RTA/FBD/EQ solutionj such as the 8024 .
you will hate the 8024
rta/fbd/eq the deq 2496 ROCKS
get the ecm 8000 measurment mic as well
very powerful and easy as dropping a rock to use
I would look at the powerlights from QSC
I have some going on 10 years old, ROCK solid, run cool, sound fantastic and
are considerably less than the crowns
another thing for the powerlights
if you do need factory service it is not a 100$ bill in shipping each way
light weight= low shipping costs
george
Thats cool. Im not very fond of the 8024 myself, only wasnt aware that
thre was a better solution, since with the I-Techs i did not need a
crossover, limiter solution.... As for amps, ill look into the QSC's
too... Thanks a ton!!
So as a solution u suggest, QSC amplifiers to drive the PA, QSC or
Behringers for the Wedges... and the DCX 2496 as a system
controller...
the dcx is the crossover/alignment tool
the deq is the eq/rta tool

I am not up on the features in the dsp package that comes with nthe newer
crowns
so if you go qsc be sure you still have the processing power you need
the PL2 is a complete line of amps, there will be one withwhat ever # of
watts you feel you require

I am not going to recommend a wattage as I would start a war here over how
many watts is enough
soundguys are taught to go 2x the speakers continous rateing
I STRONGLY disagree with that mindset
but I really don't care to get into all that
what ever speaker you buy,, the manufacturer will have a recommended power
rateing for the amp it would like to see it driven by
follow the manufacturers recommendations

the one up side to the drive rac product is they are preprogrammed with JBL
presets
Sidhu
2007-03-21 20:49:06 UTC
Permalink
Thats why id just like a good> RTA/FBD/EQ solutionj such as the 8024 .
you will hate the 8024
rta/fbd/eq the deq 2496 ROCKS
get the ecm 8000 measurment mic as well
very powerful and easy as dropping a rock to use
I would look at the powerlights from QSC
I have some going on 10 years old, ROCK solid, run cool, sound fantastic and
are considerably less than the crowns
another thing for the powerlights
if you do need factory service it is not a 100$ bill in shipping each way
light weight= low shipping costs
george
I just looked up the QSC powerlight amps.. the max they have on offer
is the Powerlight PL 6.0 II, which drives 2200Watts at 4ohms, driven
stereo. Now, i would like something that can drive my speakers to the
max... So im actually looking at an amp that can deliver 3200 Watts
into 4ohms stereo. (800 x 2 driven in parralell)

Thanks again...

Sidhu
t***@peoplepc.com
2007-03-21 21:22:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sidhu
Thats why id just like a good> RTA/FBD/EQ solutionj such as the 8024 .
you will hate the 8024
rta/fbd/eq the deq 2496 ROCKS
get the ecm 8000 measurment mic as well
very powerful and easy as dropping a rock to use
I would look at the powerlights from QSC
I have some going on 10 years old, ROCK solid, run cool, sound fantastic and
are considerably less than the crowns
another thing for the powerlights
if you do need factory service it is not a 100$ bill in shipping each way
light weight= low shipping costs
george
I just looked up the QSC powerlight amps.. the max they have on offer
is the Powerlight PL 6.0 II, which drives 2200Watts at 4ohms, driven
stereo. Now, i would like something that can drive my speakers to the
max... So im actually looking at an amp that can deliver 3200 Watts
into 4ohms stereo. (800 x 2 driven in parralell)
Thanks again...
I was not aware they discontinued the 9.0
sorry
george
Sidhu
2007-03-21 22:46:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@peoplepc.com
Post by Sidhu
Thats why id just like a good> RTA/FBD/EQ solutionj such as the 8024 .
you will hate the 8024
rta/fbd/eq the deq 2496 ROCKS
get the ecm 8000 measurment mic as well
very powerful and easy as dropping a rock to use
I would look at the powerlights from QSC
I have some going on 10 years old, ROCK solid, run cool, sound fantastic and
are considerably less than the crowns
another thing for the powerlights
if you do need factory service it is not a 100$ bill in shipping each way
light weight= low shipping costs
george
I just looked up the QSC powerlight amps.. the max they have on offer
is the Powerlight PL 6.0 II, which drives 2200Watts at 4ohms, driven
stereo. Now, i would like something that can drive my speakers to the
max... So im actually looking at an amp that can deliver 3200 Watts
into 4ohms stereo. (800 x 2 driven in parralell)
Thanks again...
I was not aware they discontinued the 9.0
sorry
george
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Ok.. i would like to state my little experience ive had with the VRX
tops and some amps ive used with em. I use the VRX rig very often, the
system is rigged with 2VRX932's a side, in ll, tripod mounted. I use
them with either the Vortex6 amps, or the Crown I-Tech4000 series, one
amp running stereo, driven at 4ohms.

Now, i was a bit stumped at first (esp. with the Vortex6) when I would
alwaz clip the amps on the transients.. Usually heavy metal music, but
even if not. I stopped worrying about the Vortex cause there is no
audible distortion, and i never blew a high...

However.. with the I-Tech4000, while the clipping was still there on
the transients.. these amps would got nowhere as loud as the Vortex..
so i called up the rental company and told them that the amps seem
underpowered and as a result could be of harm to the speakers (more of
as a precaution, i was to run the system for 12 shows in a month)...
next 10 odd gigs with the I-Tech4000 amps, and two VRX932 speakers
have their highs blown. The I-Tech 4000 are rated at 2000W, stereo
driven into 4ohms.

Lately i started readin on amps and speaker matching, the rule of
thumb ive read everywhere is that the amp should be twice the cont.
power rating of the speaker... including the company FAQ's.

Absolutely NO ONE is willing to state models/brands or exact wattage,
twice the cont. power.. thats all...

which then means that if im running a 800Watt 8ohm speaker in
parrelell with another, im looking at a 1600Watt spec. into 4ohms. So
my power requirement would then be an amp capable of delivering 3200
watts per channel in stereo !!!! None but the very top line of some
manufactures meet this spec.

And we are only talking a small VRX system over here for an indoor
club. I'm totally not getting it. Wonder how they match the biggies
like the EAW850's or the 760/01's.. im more of just an FOH engineer
as of now, and it's driving me nuts not understanding systems very
well. Understand my delima ? hehe...

Cheers!
Sidhu

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