4 dead, 40 hurt in stage collapse

Post by Joe Kotroczo
Seems to become a regular occurence now.
<http://www.indystar.com/article/20110813/NEWS15/110813003/Dozen-hurt-State-Fair-stage-collapse>

Video of the collapse:
<http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/08/14/indiana.stage.collapse/index.html?eref=rss_topstories>

Audio1

2011-08-14 10:59:06 UTC

Post by Audio1

Post by Joe Kotroczo
Seems to become a regular occurence now.
<http://www.indystar.com/article/20110813/NEWS15/110813003/Dozen-hurt-State-Fair-stage-collapse>

<http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/08/14/indiana.stage.collapse/index.html?eref=rss_topstories>

Another angle:
<http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/14/indiana-state-fair-stage-collapses_n_926346.html>

Arny Krueger

2011-08-16 20:48:17 UTC

Post by Audio1

Post by Joe Kotroczo
Seems to become a regular occurence now.
<http://www.indystar.com/article/20110813/NEWS15/110813003/Dozen-hurt-State-Fair-stage-collapse>

<http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/08/14/indiana.stage.collapse/index.html?eref=rss_topstories>

<http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/14/indiana-state-fair-stage-collapses_n_926346.html>

Ironic link to the truss manufactuer's web site:

Loading Image...

Phil Allison

2011-08-16 22:27:03 UTC

"Arny Krueger"

Post by Arny Krueger
http://www.jthomaseng.com/images/roofsys9.jpg

** This pic is a bit clearer:

Loading Image...

... Phil

j***@myplace.com

2011-08-16 20:59:06 UTC

Post by Audio1

Post by Joe Kotroczo
Seems to become a regular occurence now.
<http://www.indystar.com/article/20110813/NEWS15/110813003/Dozen-hurt-State-Fair-stage-collapse>

<http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/08/14/indiana.stage.collapse/index.html?eref=rss_topstories>

Lots more coverage videos on their local tv station, WISH TV
www.wishtv.com
They did a computer graphic video of the way it collapsed. Very
informative! If that damn tarp could have completely come off the
rigging, none of this would have likely occurred.

Arny Krueger

2011-08-14 12:00:25 UTC

Post by Joe Kotroczo
Seems to become a regular occurence now.
<http://www.indystar.com/article/20110813/NEWS15/110813003/Dozen-hurt-State-Fair-stage-collapse>

Looks like that stage was an accident waiting to happen. I doubt that any
professional engineer signed off on that!

bob urz

2011-08-14 18:17:28 UTC

Seems to become a regular occurrence now.
<http://www.indystar.com/article/20110813/NEWS15/110813003/Dozen-hurt-State-Fair-stage-collapse>

Looks like that stage was an accident waiting to happen. I doubt that any
professional engineer signed off on that!

That was a standard stage top that has been all over the country. We
just had a similar stage here for the Red sky festival

Why was it an accident waiting to happen?

Most of the smaller stages allow you to bring in the top.
we just did Selena Gomez here with a medium size top from MSR

http://www.mobilestagerentals.com/contact.php?X=&Y=&lang=1

Some of the larger stages are reinforced such that you may not be able
to quickly bring in the top. In this case, Sugerland had the big round
video wall/truss behind the band that would have to be moved before the
top came in (just did sugarland two weeks ago so i saw the rig)

there is the one view of 1/2 the roofs cover tearing off just before the
collapse. Don't know if that acted like a airfoil and created a lift
effect that caused more than the rated force the stage could stand or not.

Its dangerous out there in the summer outdoor season. when setting up
Selena, we had a thunderstorm overhead and rain. Lightning could have
e struck the stage and fried us all.

bob

Arny Krueger

2011-08-15 12:12:18 UTC

Seems to become a regular occurrence now.
<http://www.indystar.com/article/20110813/NEWS15/110813003/Dozen-hurt-State-Fair-stage-collapse>

Looks like that stage was an accident waiting to happen. I doubt that any
professional engineer signed off on that!

That was a standard stage top that has been all over the country. We just
had a similar stage here for the Red sky festival

Unless some specific implementation errors can be found, the design is
greviously flawed.

Why was it an accident waiting to happen?

The evidence is right there before us. Like so many things Bob, you are
clearly in denial about clear facts for which in this case by the Grace of
God we have photogaphic evidence of.

This was't a 757 flying into the WTC or a 100 year storm, this was little
rain squall that happens all summer all over the midwest. If you build one
of these and expect it to be safe in this application, you are just doing
the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. That is
the definition of insanity!

bob urz

2011-08-16 03:00:18 UTC

Seems to become a regular occurrence now.
<http://www.indystar.com/article/20110813/NEWS15/110813003/Dozen-hurt-State-Fair-stage-collapse>

Looks like that stage was an accident waiting to happen. I doubt that any
professional engineer signed off on that!

That was a standard stage top that has been all over the country. We just
had a similar stage here for the Red sky festival

Unless some specific implementation errors can be found, the design is
grievously flawed.

Why was it an accident waiting to happen?

The evidence is right there before us. Like so many things Bob, you are
clearly in denial about clear facts for which in this case by the Grace of
God we have photographic evidence of.

Denial of what? Arny your an idiot. Have you EVER worked or set up one
of those mid to large mobile stages? Sure it fell over, no one is
disputing that. Did you happen to see the wind gust with the huge amount
of dust just preceding it? Maybe you should have watched the weather
channels post mortem on the radar and what happened. If anything, the
crowd and hands SHOULD have been evacuated sooner. My heart goes out
to the poor guy that died running the truss spot. He had no easy way to
get down quickly

By the grace of God, maybe you should explain to the poor residents of
Joplin Missouri that there houses and business were accidents waiting to
happen and they should have not been living there. weather disasters
happen. Fortunately, not common, although this year has been a record
for strange dangerous weather.

For all its worth, i do think there needs to be some modifications
to make the stages more wind proof. Like i said in an earlier post,
side flaps that open up under high wind load in the PVC/fabric side
curtains could have cut down on the lateral stress on the stage.

If anyone with a brain has worked on of these stages, there are not
a lot of options for design. the roof is load bearing. it has to be.
Its taken up with corner blocks by chain motors. Then reinforced
once its up to trim. All modern shows hang off the ceiling. The
Sugerland show that was destroyed was just in Nebraska and i worked it.
It was the same rig and had substantial gear hanging from the ceiling

Some of the smaller rigs can be trailer based and don't have the gear
hanging off like the larger shows. In this case, they can and do
bring the roof down to protect the gear and personnel

Post by Arny Krueger
http://www.locationscenemobile.com/main.php?X=1400&Y=1050&lang=1

We just did one of these in a smaller ballpark last week for Selena
Gomez. It folds out like George Jetsons suitcase. Then reinforced.

If you think you could do a better job Arny, i suggest you quit your
carrier as a church sound engineer and start a new one deigning stages
I am sure the world would be at your door step.....

bob

Denny Strauser

2011-08-16 04:58:43 UTC

Seems to become a regular occurrence now.
<http://www.indystar.com/article/20110813/NEWS15/110813003/Dozen-hurt-State-Fair-stage-collapse>

Looks like that stage was an accident waiting to happen. I doubt that any
professional engineer signed off on that!

That was a standard stage top that has been all over the country. We just
had a similar stage here for the Red sky festival

Unless some specific implementation errors can be found, the design is
grievously flawed.

Why was it an accident waiting to happen?

The evidence is right there before us. Like so many things Bob, you are
clearly in denial about clear facts for which in this case by the Grace of
God we have photographic evidence of.

Denial of what? Arny your an idiot. Have you EVER worked or set up one
of those mid to large mobile stages? Sure it fell over, no one is
disputing that. Did you happen to see the wind gust with the huge amount
of dust just preceding it? Maybe you should have watched the weather
channels post mortem on the radar and what happened. If anything, the
crowd and hands SHOULD have been evacuated sooner. My heart goes out
to the poor guy that died running the truss spot. He had no easy way to
get down quickly
By the grace of God, maybe you should explain to the poor residents of
Joplin Missouri that there houses and business were accidents waiting to
happen and they should have not been living there. weather disasters
happen. Fortunately, not common, although this year has been a record
for strange dangerous weather.
For all its worth, i do think there needs to be some modifications
to make the stages more wind proof. Like i said in an earlier post,
side flaps that open up under high wind load in the PVC/fabric side
curtains could have cut down on the lateral stress on the stage.
If anyone with a brain has worked on of these stages, there are not
a lot of options for design. the roof is load bearing. it has to be.
Its taken up with corner blocks by chain motors. Then reinforced
once its up to trim. All modern shows hang off the ceiling. The
Sugerland show that was destroyed was just in Nebraska and i worked it.
It was the same rig and had substantial gear hanging from the ceiling
Some of the smaller rigs can be trailer based and don't have the gear
hanging off like the larger shows. In this case, they can and do
bring the roof down to protect the gear and personnel

http://www.locationscenemobile.com/main.php?X=1400&Y=1050&lang=1

We just did one of these in a smaller ballpark last week for Selena
Gomez. It folds out like George Jetsons suitcase. Then reinforced.
If you think you could do a better job Arny, i suggest you quit your
carrier as a church sound engineer and start a new one deigning stages
I am sure the world would be at your door step.....

Wind bursts were estimated to be 60-70mph ... 74mph is tropical
storm/hurricane. When will patron safety be more cost effective than
liability insurance? ,,,,, When all the liability claims are paid ...
and insurance costs skyrocket like the tent that took flight ... then
crashed ...

- Denny

Arny Krueger

2011-08-16 11:23:18 UTC

Post by bob urz
Denial of what? Arny your an idiot.

No beed ti read any further. Urz has no idea of what a converstaion consists
of.

He also approves of rigging that kils stage workers, it seems.

bob urz

2011-08-16 16:11:30 UTC

Post by bob urz
Denial of what? Arny your an idiot.

No beed ti read any further. Urz has no idea of what a converstaion consists
of.
He also approves of rigging that kils stage workers, it seems.

Accidents happen Arny, that's WHY there called accidents
how about this one?

http://www.plsn.com/news/21-news/7821-david-howard-mann-owner-of-jumbo-screen-co-inc-dies-in-led-screen-accident.html

The owner of the company took himself out.
Think that was intentional?

The bottom line is there IS risk in what we do in production.
Everyone trys there best to minimize it. Sometimes it don't
work out that way
\\

bob

Arny Krueger

2011-08-16 17:18:40 UTC

Post by bob urz
Denial of what? Arny your an idiot.

No beed ti read any further. Urz has no idea of what a converstaion consists
of.
He also approves of rigging that kills stage workers, it seems.

Accidents happen Arny, that's WHY there called accidents
how about this one?
http://www.plsn.com/news/21-news/7821-david-howard-mann-owner-of-jumbo-screen-co-inc-dies-in-led-screen-accident.html

Well Bob, what's your point?

We don't have enough details in that article to get much of a clue about
what really went on.

Bob, are you still in denial about the fact that there are both avoidable
and unavoidable accidents?

Post by bob urz
The owner of the company took himself out.

I dunno. Maybe he deserves a Darwin award. Maybe it was a fluke.

Post by bob urz
Think that was intentional?

Ever hear of the law of unintentional consequences? I guess not. Well,
there's a subject for you to ponder...

Post by bob urz
The bottom line is there IS risk in what we do in production.

Again Bob, what's your point? Do you think that you are the first person
around here who discovered that there is risk in everything?

Of course there is risk in everything we do.

When the lives of others are at risk, managing risk is a special moral
obligation.

Post by bob urz
Everyone trys there best to minimize it.

Obviously not. Furthermore, some people's best is better than other's.

Post by bob urz
Sometimes it don't work out that way

Sometimes people build flimsy structures that go down in a wind that was not
only predictable, but likely and predicted.

j***@myplace.com

2011-08-16 21:11:01 UTC

Post by bob urz
For all its worth, i do think there needs to be some modifications
to make the stages more wind proof. Like i said in an earlier post,
side flaps that open up under high wind load in the PVC/fabric side
curtains could have cut down on the lateral stress on the stage.

There should be a release to release the tarp on the roof when it
comes loose. They are claiming that the tarp first lifted the roof,
and that is what caused the collapse. That tarp was completely off
except the points at the lowest edge. If they had a means to
disconnect those points by pulling a rope or something, this collapse
would not likely have occurred.

I dont know if the roof lifted off the uprights, or if the uprights
lifted off the base????

Phil Allison

2011-08-16 07:42:57 UTC

"Arny Krueger"

"bob errs"

Post by Arny Krueger
Looks like that stage was an accident waiting to happen. I doubt that any
professional engineer signed off on that!

That was a standard stage top that has been all over the country. We just
had a similar stage here for the Red sky festival

Unless some specific implementation errors can be found, the design is
greviously flawed.

Why was it an accident waiting to happen?

The evidence is right there before us. Like so many things Bob, you are
clearly in denial about clear facts for which in this case by the Grace of
God we have photogaphic evidence of.
This was't a 757 flying into the WTC or a 100 year storm, this was little
rain squall that happens all summer all over the midwest. If you build one
of these and expect it to be safe in this application, you are just doing
the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. That is
the definition of insanity!

** The reason horrible accidents like this one happen and nearly happen so
often is that the industry is full of arrogant fools just like Bob Urz.

A police investigation and public inquiry may really set a big, nasty cat
among the pigeons here.

.... Phil

Arny Krueger

2011-08-16 11:24:58 UTC

Post by Phil Allison
** The reason horrible accidents like this one happen and nearly happen so
often is that the industry is full of arrogant fools just like Bob Urz.

You forgot to mention Marc, who also ha voiced his approval of defective
rigging that kills stage workers.

geoff

2011-08-16 20:50:06 UTC

Post by Arny Krueger
The evidence is right there before us. Like so many things Bob, you
are clearly in denial about clear facts for which in this case by the
Grace of God we have photogaphic evidence of.

Yeah. Thanks God.

geoff

j***@myplace.com

2011-08-16 21:03:47 UTC

Post by bob urz
Some of the larger stages are reinforced such that you may not be able
to quickly bring in the top. In this case, Sugerland had the big round
video wall/truss behind the band that would have to be moved before the
top came in (just did sugarland two weeks ago so i saw the rig)

Then maybe you can answer the question I have been asking.....
What is that round thing? Is it a giant tv screen or what?
I have never seen Sugarland. I was looking on youtube yesterday for a
video showing that particular stage setup but did not find anything
similar.

Arny Krueger

2011-08-16 21:26:30 UTC

Then maybe you can answer the question I have been asking.....
What is that round thing? Is it a giant tv screen or what?

Video screen.

Post by j***@myplace.com
I have never seen Sugarland. I was looking on youtube yesterday for a
video showing that particular stage setup but did not find anything
similar.

Here's the vendor promo shot for the setup:

http://www.jthomaseng.com/images/roofsys9.jpg

j***@myplace.com

2011-08-17 02:11:08 UTC

Then maybe you can answer the question I have been asking.....
What is that round thing? Is it a giant tv screen or what?

Video screen.

I never knew they made round video screens. Must be a custom made
one.

Post by j***@myplace.com
I have never seen Sugarland. I was looking on youtube yesterday for a
video showing that particular stage setup but did not find anything
similar.

http://www.jthomaseng.com/images/roofsys9.jpg

I bet that will be removed soon....

bob urz

2011-08-17 02:16:12 UTC

The "round thing" is a video wall flanked by a circular truss with
lights on it. Its the latest thing to make odd sized video walls

If you want to take it one step further, check out Motley Crues latest
tour. They have a video wall on a circle too. But it ALSO doubles as
an amusement park ride for Tommy lees drum set doing a 360 upside down
turn.

Just did that show a few weeks back. Show uses the new Clair
"Vision" speakers (recycled Prism gear with some new guts)

bob

alex

2011-08-15 00:57:42 UTC

Post by Joe Kotroczo
Seems to become a regular occurence now.
<http://www.indystar.com/article/20110813/NEWS15/110813003/Dozen-hurt-State-Fair-stage-collapse>

Looks like that stage was an accident waiting to happen. I doubt that any
professional engineer signed off on that!

is much likely that the diagonal cables are not enough (number or
strength) to face the storm force. Once the structure start to move, all
structural elements quickly become required to resist to completely
different kind of forces than those they are designed for.
triangular structures are not deformable. sadly this very simple truth
appear to be difficult to understand to many stage professionell, at
least in my experience and at least here in italy.

alex

Marc Amsterdam

2011-08-15 09:37:21 UTC

Post by Joe Kotroczo
Seems to become a regular occurence now.
<http://www.indystar.com/article/20110813/NEWS15/110813003/Dozen-hurt-State-Fair-stage-collapse>

Looks

Post by Arny Krueger
like that stage was an accident waiting to happen. I doubt that any
professional engineer signed off on that!

is much likely that the diagonal cables are not enough (number or
strength) to face the storm force. Once the structure start to move,
all structural elements quickly become required to resist to completely
different kind of forces than those they are designed for.
triangular structures are not deformable. sadly this very simple truth
appear to be difficult to understand to many stage professionell, at
least in my experience and at least here in italy.

ow yes.... Italy!

Post by alex
alex

Arny Krueger

2011-08-15 12:14:15 UTC

Post by Joe Kotroczo
Seems to become a regular occurence now.
<http://www.indystar.com/article/20110813/NEWS15/110813003/Dozen-hurt-State-Fair-stage-collapse>

Looks

Post by Arny Krueger
like that stage was an accident waiting to happen. I doubt that any
professional engineer signed off on that!

ow yes.... Italy!

Last time I badmouthed Italian engineering, someone put me in my place with
three words: Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Weber. In audio, we can add B&C.

Marc Amsterdam

2011-08-15 12:28:52 UTC

Post by Joe Kotroczo
Seems to become a regular occurence now.
<http://www.indystar.com/article/20110813/NEWS15/110813003/Dozen-hurt-State-Fair-stage-collapse>

Looks

like

Post by Arny Krueger
that stage was an accident waiting to happen. I doubt that any
professional engineer signed off on that!

is much likely that the diagonal cables are not enough (number or
strength) to face the storm force. Once the structure start to move,
all structural elements quickly become required to resist to completely
different kind of forces than those they are designed for.
triangular structures are not deformable. sadly this very simple truth
appear to be difficult to understand to many stage professionell, at
least in my experience and at least here in italy.

ow yes.... Italy!

Last time I badmouthed Italian engineering, someone put me in my place
with three words: Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Weber. In audio, we can
add B&C.

Ferrari.... Ever driven one? nice looks good, brakes down
Lamborgini, owned by Audi, engineered by Audi, tries to kill you...!
Weber.... you dont mean the BBq's i'd say and for the caburetors,
there obsolete just a the Morreli's.

but hey, it better than American cars if that's your standard :-)

Arny Krueger

2011-08-15 13:13:16 UTC

Post by Arny Krueger
Last time I badmouthed Italian engineering, someone put me in my place
with three words: Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Weber. In audio, we can add
B&C.

Ferrari.... Ever driven one? nice looks good, brakes down

The above mess is a testimony the failures of the educational system that
produced you Mark, as are the numerous semi-illiterate typos you make below.

Post by Marc Amsterdam
Lamborghini, owned by Audi, engineered by Audi, tries to kill you...!

That Audi would buy them and yet allow them to engineer their own cars and
even borrow technology says a lot that is probably way over your head, Mark.

Post by Marc Amsterdam
Weber.... you dont mean the BBq's i'd say and for the caburetors, there
obsolete just a the Morreli's.

Just addressing your categorical condemnation and geneal dissing of Italian
engineering.

Post by Marc Amsterdam
but hey, it better than American cars if that's your standard :-)

Glad to see Mark that you seem to think that all American cars still use
carburetors.

I see Mark that as I expected, the B&C reference was way over your head.
Have a nice day and if you have a few pennies to rub together - try buying
your first clue...

LOL!

Marc Amsterdam

2011-08-15 18:26:40 UTC

Post by Arny Krueger
I see Mark that as I expected, the B&C reference was way over your
head. Have a nice day and if you have a few pennies to rub together -
try buying your first clue...

Montarbo.... I win hands down :-)

Sit down and relax Arny, have a nice glas of wine and a quiet evening!

alex

2011-08-15 19:52:20 UTC

Post by Arny Krueger
I see Mark that as I expected, the B&C reference was way over your
head. Have a nice day and if you have a few pennies to rub together -
try buying your first clue...

Montarbo.... I win hands down :-)
Sit down and relax Arny, have a nice glas of wine and a quiet evening!

right, wine! you loose hands up :-)

montarbo was an '80 company specialized in dancing club equipements.
They still exist but they are now focused on much different things than
pro audio.
IMHO "outline" is a very good italian maker of quality speakers
(http://www.outlinearray.com/) along with ciare (http://www.ciare.com/).
Proel (http://www.proel.com/proel/index.html) is a nice low cost company
from accessories to systems, they are growing in catalog and quality.
Karray is another good deal! A very rapidly growing company with very
much effort on research, the products line are growing better every day.
(http://www.k-array.net/)

there are a lot more...

alex

2011-08-15 14:47:52 UTC

Post by Joe Kotroczo
Seems to become a regular occurence now.
<http://www.indystar.com/article/20110813/NEWS15/110813003/Dozen-hurt-State-Fair-stage-collapse>

Looks

Post by Arny Krueger
like that stage was an accident waiting to happen. I doubt that any
professional engineer signed off on that!

is much likely that the diagonal cables are not enough (number or
strength) to face the storm force. Once the structure start to move,
all structural elements quickly become required to resist to
completely different kind of forces than those they are designed for.
triangular structures are not deformable. sadly this very simple truth
appear to be difficult to understand to many stage professionell, at
least in my experience and at least here in italy.

ow yes.... Italy!

Post by alex
alex

stage accompany still makes the ribbon drivers? :-)

Marc Amsterdam

2011-08-15 18:36:34 UTC

Post by Joe Kotroczo
Seems to become a regular occurence now.
<http://www.indystar.com/article/20110813/NEWS15/110813003/Dozen-hurt-State-Fair-stage-collapse>

Looks

like

Post by Arny Krueger
that stage was an accident waiting to happen. I doubt that any
professional engineer signed off on that!

is much likely that the diagonal cables are not enough (number or
strength) to face the storm force. Once the structure start to move,
all structural elements quickly become required to resist to
completely different kind of forces than those they are designed for.
triangular structures are not deformable. sadly this very simple truth
appear to be difficult to understand to many stage professionell, at
least in my experience and at least here in italy.

ow yes.... Italy!

Post by alex
alex

stage accompany still makes the ribbon drivers? :-)

Haha, I understand were your coming from :-) they Sucked! and then
blew, usually all of them @ once

SA is now Alcon's and they make a new and much improved version of the
ribbon, sounds great up to the point of distortion.... (usually when
the guest engineer comes in)
Worked a lot with the LR series, great for vocals and classical music,
fair usable for R&R as long as now know damn well what your doing.
We're fasing them out in favor of L-accoustics, but for now we keep a
stock of 48 LR16 for the sake of it.
and then there near 100 LR14's used in the musical "Soldier of orange"
(Soldaat van oranje) Afaik no problems there as of yet, 18 months of
service.

http://www.alconsaudio.com/site/index.php

http://www.inavateonthenet.net/article/41355/Alcons-cabinets-support-revolutionary-production.aspx

Joe Kotroczo

2011-08-16 07:22:28 UTC

On 15/08/2011 15:47, alex wrote:

(...)

Post by alex
stage accompany still makes the ribbon drivers? :-)

Wow, I just had a flash back. And they were painted light blue, were
they not?

--
Illegitimi non carborundum

Marc Amsterdam

2011-08-18 07:06:41 UTC

(...)

Post by alex
stage accompany still makes the ribbon drivers? :-)

Wow, I just had a flash back. And they were painted light blue, were they not?

That was the standard color, (blue box) but one could order them in any
RAL color.
There's a lot of then around in film theatre 's around here....

bob urz

2011-08-15 15:44:57 UTC

Post by Joe Kotroczo
Seems to become a regular occurence now.
<http://www.indystar.com/article/20110813/NEWS15/110813003/Dozen-hurt-State-Fair-stage-collapse>

Looks like that stage was an accident waiting to happen. I doubt that any
professional engineer signed off on that!

is much likely that the diagonal cables are not enough (number or
strength) to face the storm force. Once the structure start to move, all
structural elements quickly become required to resist to completely
different kind of forces than those they are designed for.
triangular structures are not deformable. sadly this very simple truth
appear to be difficult to understand to many stage professional, at
least in my experience and at least here in Italy.
alex

One can look to NASCAR for a partial solution to the problem.
when those huge tops go up, the side curtains are PVC or such
with only one smaller optional opening at the bottom.

when a wind gust hits the side, it has ALL that surface area to
catch the wind (like a sail) and put lateral force on the whole rig.

NASCAR had similar issues with cars getting air under them a few years
back and flipping end over end 10 times or so. What NASCAR did was
install roof flaps in the cars to release the built up air pressure.
this greatly cut down on the cars going airborne and flipping

What the stage tops could do is put a number of flaps to the on stage
side on the side curtains and rear curtain. these flaps would be held
down with Velcro or such to have some holding power. When a huge gust of
wind hit, the flaps would be designed to break the Velcro seal and flap
open to release the wind load on the curtain. It might take some
engineering, but it would be a much simpler solution than to re-engineer
the steel structure of the roof.

The world trade center proved even a structurally sound building came
down with the right failures in the wrong places.

bob

Richard Webb

2011-08-16 00:51:17 UTC

On Mon 2011-Aug-15 11:44, bob urz writes:
<snip>

One can look to NASCAR for a partial solution to the problem. when
those huge tops go up, the side curtains are PVC or such with only
one smaller optional opening at the bottom.

<snip>

What the stage tops could do is put a number of flaps to the on
stage side on the side curtains and rear curtain. these flaps would
be held down with Velcro or such to have some holding power. When a
huge gust of wind hit, the flaps would be designed to break the
Velcro seal and flap open to release the wind load on the curtain.
It might take some engineering, but it would be a much simpler
solution than to re-engineer the steel structure of the roof.

Agreed. I'm surprised they haven't thought of it yet.

The world trade center proved even a structurally sound building
came down with the right failures in the wrong places.

That's all it takes, but those tops are going to get used in environments where that's likely to happen.

Regards,
Richard
... Remote audio in the southland: See www.gatasound.com
--
| Remove .my.foot for email
| via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet<->Internet Gateway Site
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.

Marc Amsterdam

2011-08-18 07:24:13 UTC

Post by Richard Webb
<snip>

One can look to NASCAR for a partial solution to the problem. when
those huge tops go up, the side curtains are PVC or such with only
one smaller optional opening at the bottom.

<snip>

Agreed. I'm surprised they haven't thought of it yet.

Try a stage from ours then....

Oh well, i'm of sailing

http://eus.nl/

Joe Kotroczo

2011-08-16 07:24:03 UTC

On 15/08/2011 16:44, bob urz wrote:

(...)

Post by bob urz
What the stage tops could do is put a number of flaps to the on stage
side on the side curtains and rear curtain. these flaps would be held
down with Velcro or such to have some holding power. When a huge gust of
wind hit, the flaps would be designed to break the Velcro seal and flap
open to release the wind load on the curtain.

Velcro ain't waterproof...

--
Illegitimi non carborundum

Arny Krueger

2011-08-16 11:42:48 UTC

Post by Joe Kotroczo
(...)

Velcro ain't waterproof...

??????????????

bob urz

2011-08-16 15:54:13 UTC

Post by Joe Kotroczo
(...)

Velcro ain't waterproof...

Velcro was an example. you could just as easily used magnets sewn into
the curtain for a magnetic latch that would break away under load
Magnets are good enough for beer cups now, so why not?

bob

alex

2011-08-16 19:38:33 UTC

Post by Joe Kotroczo
Seems to become a regular occurence now.
<http://www.indystar.com/article/20110813/NEWS15/110813003/Dozen-hurt-State-Fair-stage-collapse>

Looks like that stage was an accident waiting to happen. I doubt that any
professional engineer signed off on that!

is much likely that the diagonal cables are not enough (number or
strength) to face the storm force. Once the structure start to move, all
structural elements quickly become required to resist to completely
different kind of forces than those they are designed for.
triangular structures are not deformable. sadly this very simple truth
appear to be difficult to understand to many stage professional, at
least in my experience and at least here in Italy.
alex

One can look to NASCAR for a partial solution to the problem.
when those huge tops go up, the side curtains are PVC or such
with only one smaller optional opening at the bottom.
when a wind gust hits the side, it has ALL that surface area to
catch the wind (like a sail) and put lateral force on the whole rig.
NASCAR had similar issues with cars getting air under them a few years
back and flipping end over end 10 times or so. What NASCAR did was
install roof flaps in the cars to release the built up air pressure.
this greatly cut down on the cars going airborne and flipping
What the stage tops could do is put a number of flaps to the on stage
side on the side curtains and rear curtain. these flaps would be held
down with Velcro or such to have some holding power. When a huge gust of
wind hit, the flaps would be designed to break the Velcro seal and flap
open to release the wind load on the curtain. It might take some
engineering, but it would be a much simpler solution than to re-engineer
the steel structure of the roof.
The world trade center proved even a structurally sound building came
down with the right failures in the wrong places.
bob

yes, good idea, one of the the problems can be that the curtain height
versus ring height is not a constant, so is difficult to place the
velcro in the correct position on the curtain. This lead to install
problems that take time... Other than this we should take into account
the possible equipement damages produced by BIG curtain free to move in
the wind.
Diagonal finely tensioned steel cables should become mandatory on all
sides except the front one, including the ring. This will make the
curtain movement less free but will assure a much better overall
undeformability to the entire structure.

Phil Allison

2011-08-16 07:39:29 UTC

"Arny Krueger"

"Joe Kotroczo"

Post by Joe Kotroczo
Seems to become a regular occurence now.
<http://www.indystar.com/article/20110813/NEWS15/110813003/Dozen-hurt-State-Fair-stage-collapse>

Looks like that stage was an accident waiting to happen. I doubt that any
professional engineer signed off on that!

** Whoever did may well find themselves facing a manslaughter charge.

.... Phil

Arny Krueger

2011-08-16 11:46:54 UTC

Post by Joe Kotroczo
Seems to become a regular occurence now.
<http://www.indystar.com/article/20110813/NEWS15/110813003/Dozen-hurt-State-Fair-stage-collapse>

Looks like that stage was an accident waiting to happen. I doubt that any
professional engineer signed off on that!

** Whoever did may well find themselves facing a manslaughter charge.

"The death toll from the accident rose to five from four after a lighting
crew member who was atop the towering scaffolding when it fell was
pronounced dead on Sunday morning."

The poor guy was ordered up into the rigging as the weather worsened...

This is what Marc and Bob apparently seek to justify.

It will be interesting to see if they change their story when the dead
include not only anonymous concert-goers but also "one of our own". :-(

bob urz

2011-08-16 15:48:16 UTC

Seems to become a regular occurrence now.
<http://www.indystar.com/article/20110813/NEWS15/110813003/Dozen-hurt-State-Fair-stage-collapse>

Looks like that stage was an accident waiting to happen. I doubt that any
professional engineer signed off on that!

** Whoever did may well find themselves facing a manslaughter charge.

"The death toll from the accident rose to five from four after a lighting
crew member who was atop the towering scaffolding when it fell was
pronounced dead on Sunday morning."
The poor guy was ordered up into the rigging as the weather worsened...
This is what Marc and Bob apparently seek to justify.
It will be interesting to see if they change their story when the dead
include not only anonymous concert-goers but also "one of our own". :-(

I'll say again ARNY your AN IDIOT!
nobody condoned ANYONE getting injured or killed.

I have worked under stages just like what went down.
If it looked like there was defective parts, bolts, trusses you can bet
i would have not been under it. I bet both of you an old donut that
neither you or Allusion has been anywhere near one of these stages going
up/down or worked on one.

I give you another clue ARNY, these stages have a fixed crew that go out
with them and check the stage every day for any issues. They don't want
any issues. They do go out to kill or injury people.

During summer fair season and such, stages like this have been all over
the country for years. This is no new thing

And in case you did not know Mr expert, the guy in the truss was a truss
spot operator. These are spotlights that hang off of truss over the
stage. The operators are required to usually go up 1/2 hour before the
show to check there lights and get into position. The usual means
of entry is by climbing a wire rope ladder to the truss with safety
harness, then cliping off to safety line while walking the truss until
you get to you light, then re attaching your safety harness to the light
safety point

Since the show was about to start, the spot guy was probably already up
there awhile. He may have been up there for the opening act also.
Once your up, you stay up. Even if he was given warning to get out of
there at the last minute, it would have taken awhile to get to the
ground with the safety harness being clipped and unclipped from the
safety lines of the truss. Those harness and lines are there TO BE
SAFE. And that's the protocol if you climbing or walking the truss
This is the same whether your indoors or outdoors.

Don't put words in anyone's mouths ARNY. this was a tragedy. And
post mortem investigations of this and the Canada stage crashes
earlier might lead to some more safety changes of some sort.

Id anything could have been done different, it would have been
interpreting the weather data differently to evacuate the stage and
seating earlier. Like i said, if you would have watched the weather
channel bit on this, they said there was a line on the radar before
the bit red blob that flowed it that a trained meteorologist would
have said is a wind squall line with the potential for brief high winds.
To the untrained eye, it looked like rain.

with enough warning, people would have NOT been near the stage and safe.
Gear is expensive, but can be replaced eventually. This brought
Sugerlands tour to a screeching halt.

Arny Krueger

2011-08-16 17:21:02 UTC

Post by bob urz
I'll say again ARNY your AN IDIOT!

This is classic, Bob. You can't even write seven words without exposing your
highly limited literacy.

You're giving people in audio production a bad name.

bob urz

2011-08-16 23:58:07 UTC

Post by bob urz
I'll say again ARNY your AN IDIOT!

This is classic, Bob. You can't even write seven words without exposing your
highly limited literacy.
You're giving people in audio production a bad name.

Let me quote Arny speak:

"No beed ti read any further. Urz has no idea of what a converstaion
consists of."

Pick up literacy for dummy's and take two aspirin and go to bed.

It amazes me you see a short video of a collapse and are suddenly
an expert on rigging and structure. You will be telling us your a PE next

A REAL PE organization has been hired by the fair board to investigate
it all. Time will tell what there report is.

If i were to speculate on the results, a side wind exceeding the rating
of the stage top was applied to one side causing a lateral
force which caused a domino effect failure of the rest of the structure

If you want to do something useful, ask your church to pray for the
victims of this disaster

bob

Phil Allison

2011-08-17 07:36:40 UTC

"bob urz"

If i were to speculate on the results, a side wind exceeding the rating of
the stage top was applied to one side causing a lateral
force which caused a domino effect failure of the rest of the structure

** Which means the design is inherently unsafe in the circumstances and the
folk who installed it are criminally liable for all the deaths and injuries.

All similar designs will have to be outlawed.

..... Phil

j***@myplace.com

2011-08-17 23:20:03 UTC

Post by Phil Allison
"bob urz"

** Which means the design is inherently unsafe in the circumstances and the
folk who installed it are criminally liable for all the deaths and injuries.
All similar designs will have to be outlawed.
..... Phil

Just a thought on the matter.
Wouldn't it be cheaper in the long run to build permanent buildings on
these fairgrounds? Those riggings probably cost a fortune to start
with, then every year they have to put them up and tear them down,
which in itself must cost a bundle to hire all the people and all the
machines needed to erect them. I'm sure that a permanent building
made of concrete would cost more initially, but once it's built it's
there for a century or more.

They said this rigging was 15 years old. Now they have nothing, plus
all the deaths and injuries that they will have to pay for. Yea, I
know insurance will play a part, but the insurance costs on such a
structure must be much more than for a solid building.

I know of one such structure, and that's the ampitheater at Summerfest
in Milwaukee, WI. It's all concrete and I doubt any winds would cause
that to collapse. I'm sure there are others.

Maybe they wont even allow these rigging structures in the future, so
if they insist on having such huge stages, they may be forced to build
permanent structures, or else just go with small stages made from
lightweight frames like they used in the past. I personally do not
see any way to make rigging like that fail proof. Weather storms
occur all over the world. Even of they adhere to forcing people to
leave much sooner when severe weather approaches, lives will be saved,
but there will still be material damage and cancelled shows as a
result of collapse.

While the loss of lives are the worst part of this incident, I just
wonder how many millions of dollars of damage there was. It's not
just the rigging itself, but most if not all of the lighting,
speakers, and staging was likely ruined. What can be salvaged will
likely be dented and banged up, or simply not work. None of that
stuff is cheap. I can only guess the cost of just those speakers
alone....

In addition to this, who owned that round video screen? Is that owned
by Sugarland, or the stage company? I'm sure there are a lot poeple
and companies involved. I heard the reason Sugarland cancelled their
show at the Iowa State Fair on Sunday was mostly because they lost all
their equipment. I guess they cant put on a decent show with a few
guitars and some leased drums.... That dont say much for their
talent.

bob urz

2011-08-18 03:04:51 UTC

Post by j***@myplace.com
Just a thought on the matter.
Wouldn't it be cheaper in the long run to build permanent buildings on
these fairgrounds? Those riggings probably cost a fortune to start
with, then every year they have to put them up and tear them down,
which in itself must cost a bundle to hire all the people and all the
machines needed to erect them. I'm sure that a permanent building
made of concrete would cost more initially, but once it's built it's
there for a century or more.

What do don't seem to understand is many of these structures are built
inside of other facilitates. four of the stages we put up this summer
were inside ballparks. What do you suggest? build a stage in the middle
of center field and hell with baseball? That will never fly. Some are
out in state parks. Good luck trying to get the state to approve and pay
for that.

The new state fair in Nebraska has shows in a permanent facility.
Its an indoor arena, but its crippled by stupid design.
Portable stages will never go away.

as far as rigging goes, chain motors are usually gone through on at
least a yearly basis. Any rigging steel is replaced as needed.
industrial ratchet straps i don't think are dated like rigging
harness are. I have not heard of one failing and causing injury,
but if there load bearing on the side supports maybe they should be.
Most companies inspect welds and joints at least on a yearly basis
on there stages.

Phil Allison

2011-08-18 05:41:13 UTC

<***@myplace.com>
"Phil Allison"

Post by j***@myplace.com
They said this rigging was 15 years old. Now they have nothing, plus
all the deaths and injuries that they will have to pay for. Yea, I
know insurance will play a part,

** There are probably two liability insurers involved - one for the venue
operators and one for the stage owners.

Both have good grounds to deny all liability and leave injured parties to
sue the negligent parties direct.

Post by j***@myplace.com
While the loss of lives are the worst part of this incident, I just
wonder how many millions of dollars of damage there was. It's not
just the rigging itself, but most if not all of the lighting,
speakers, and staging was likely ruined. What can be salvaged will
likely be dented and banged up, or simply not work. None of that
stuff is cheap. I can only guess the cost of just those speakers
alone....

** All the gear that got damaged would probably be covered by insurance
policies. But if the owners are the same people who were negligent - the
damage insurers can also deny liability.

... Phil

bob urz

2011-08-18 14:47:13 UTC

Post by Phil Allison
"Phil Allison"

Post by j***@myplace.com
They said this rigging was 15 years old. Now they have nothing, plus
all the deaths and injuries that they will have to pay for. Yea, I
know insurance will play a part,

** There are probably two liability insurers involved - one for the venue
operators and one for the stage owners.
Both have good grounds to deny all liability and leave injured parties to
sue the negligent parties direct.

If you worked in show productions, you would know there are more than
that. The band probably had there own.
a lighting company subcontracted by the band
a staging company for set pieces
a video company subcontracted by the band
a backline company sub contracted by the band
the sound company subcontracted by either the band or the venue.
A trucking company hauling the gear
A bus company hauling the crew
A catering company feeding the crew
The stage top company
possible company supplying crowd barriers and bike racks
The venue itself

** All the gear that got damaged would probably be covered by insurance
policies. But if the owners are the same people who were negligent - the
damage insurers can also deny liability.

liability against acts of god are in most riders for this kind of
policy. My guess is that the gear owners will NOT be able to even touch
whats left of there gear for a long time while this is all getting
investigated. It will probably be hard to prove what is trashed and what
is not until all the gear is removed and inspected.
my guess is that its all a write off. and it will be awhile before any
insurance money comes through. There best hope for immediate help would
be business interruption insurance if one had such a rider on the policy.

Taking a large rig out of service for months could be very costly to
the venders involved.

You might see a slightly battered round video wall as-is on Ebay by
Christmas

bob

Post by Phil Allison
... Phil

Phil Allison

2011-08-19 00:46:31 UTC

"boob errs all the time "

Post by Phil Allison
"Phil Allison"

Post by j***@myplace.com
They said this rigging was 15 years old. Now they have nothing, plus
all the deaths and injuries that they will have to pay for. Yea, I
know insurance will play a part,

** There are probably two liability insurers involved - one for the venue
operators and one for the stage owners.
Both have good grounds to deny all liability and leave injured parties to
sue the negligent parties direct.

** Only the last insurer is one INVOLVED in claims relating to the deaths
and injuries - and I mentioned them.

Post by Phil Allison
** All the gear that got damaged would probably be covered by insurance
policies. But if the owners are the same people who were negligent -
the
damage insurers can also deny liability.

** The idea that a public liability insurer can simply deny liability under
a policy is way over the boob's pointy head.

.... Phil

bob urz

2011-08-19 03:54:41 UTC

"boob errs all the time"

Post by Phil Allison
"Phil Allison"

Post by j***@myplace.com
They said this rigging was 15 years old. Now they have nothing, plus
all the deaths and injuries that they will have to pay for. Yea, I
know insurance will play a part,

** There are probably two liability insurers involved - one for the venue
operators and one for the stage owners.
Both have good grounds to deny all liability and leave injured parties to
sue the negligent parties direct.

** Only the last insurer is one INVOLVED in claims relating to the deaths
and injuries - and I mentioned them.

** The idea that a public liability insurer can simply deny liability under
a policy is way over the boob's pointy head.
.... Phil

I guess you don't follow the legal system on the other side of the pond.
If a group of lawyers file a class action for multiple injured people,
they could and will go after everyone involved for some percentage of
liability.

bob

Phil Allison

2011-08-19 04:09:08 UTC

"boob errs all the time"

Post by Phil Allison
** There are probably two liability insurers involved - one for the venue
operators and one for the stage owners.
Both have good grounds to deny all liability and leave injured parties to
sue the negligent parties direct.

** Only the last insurer is one INVOLVED in claims relating to the deaths
and injuries - and I mentioned them.

** The idea that a public liability insurer can simply deny liability under
a policy is way over the boob's pointy head.

I guess you don't follow the legal system on the other side of the pond.

** Another wrong guess.

Post by bob urz
If a group of lawyers file a class action for multiple injured people,
they could and will go after everyone involved for some percentage of
liability.

** Same idea I put forward earlier.

And the arrogant fool has ignored the above issue entirely.

A real ostrich.

..... Phil

Denny Strauser

2011-08-19 05:20:58 UTC

Post by Phil Allison
And the arrogant fool has ignored the above issue entirely.
A real ostrich.

MUCH SNIPPED .... but ......
your (snipped) response seems to fit the definition of all lurkers &
"contributors" here ...

- Denny

Krooburg Science

2011-08-18 16:14:39 UTC

Post by Phil Allison
"bob urz"

** Which means the design is inherently unsafe in the circumstances and the
folk who installed it are criminally liable for all the deaths and injuries.
All similar designs will have to be outlawed.
..... Phil

An interesting analysis of the collapse. If this person is right,
inadequate ballast was the likely cause of failure:

http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,4255.msg23667.html#msg23667

- K

bob urz

2011-08-19 02:03:55 UTC

Post by Krooburg Science

Post by Phil Allison
"bob urz"

** Which means the design is inherently unsafe in the circumstances and the
folk who installed it are criminally liable for all the deaths and injuries.
All similar designs will have to be outlawed.
..... Phil

An interesting analysis of the collapse. If this person is right,
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,4255.msg23667.html#msg23667
- K

The big stage we just did had water bladder ballasts along the edge and
underneath the stage. Now how much is enough i cannot tell you.

bob

Bigguy2010

2011-08-19 07:58:40 UTC

Post by Krooburg Science

Post by Phil Allison
"bob urz"

** Which means the design is inherently unsafe in the circumstances and the
folk who installed it are criminally liable for all the deaths and injuries.
All similar designs will have to be outlawed.
..... Phil

An interesting analysis of the collapse. If this person is right,
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,4255.msg23667.html#msg23667
- K

And the apparent lack of any cross bracing; in the large, front-on photo
there are no cross braces - not even cables.

There are lots of guy wires but nothing to keep the trusses tied into a
solid cube form.

The smaller photo below clearly shows the missing cross bracing cables,
and has another four vertical truss pillars holding the roof.

The whole rig appears to have been relying on inadequate ground anchored
guy wires to hold it in place and to resist side loadings.
This is clearly faulty engineering and rigging.

G

Arny Krueger

2011-08-19 10:38:56 UTC

Post by Phil Allison
"bob urz"

** Which means the design is inherently unsafe in the circumstances and the
folk who installed it are criminally liable for all the deaths and injuries.
All similar designs will have to be outlawed.
..... Phil

An interesting analysis of the collapse. If this person is right,
inadequate ballast was the likely cause of failure:

http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,4255.msg23667.html#msg23667

Wow! good, hot stuff!

A following post seems to show that many structural members from the
vendor-designed stage system were not in place right before the collapse.

The above point about inadaquate ballast is also very clearly pointed out.
The ballast was composed of mofable concrete freeway crash barriers, and
they did indeed move significantly and allow the stage to fall forward.
Must-see photographs!

Marc Amsterdam

2011-08-18 07:09:04 UTC

Post by bob urz
I'll say again ARNY your AN IDIOT!

This is classic, Bob. You can't even write seven words without exposing
your highly limited literacy.
You're giving people in audio production a bad name.

(?) ! Look who's talking....

Bigguy2010

2011-08-16 07:57:24 UTC

Post by Joe Kotroczo
Seems to become a regular occurence now.
<http://www.indystar.com/article/20110813/NEWS15/110813003/Dozen-hurt-State-Fair-stage-collapse>

Looks like that stage was an accident waiting to happen. I doubt that any
professional engineer signed off on that!

An alarming lack of diagonals / triangulation. See a rectangle turn into
a parallelogram.

G

Phil Allison

2011-08-16 08:01:29 UTC

"Bigguy2010"

Post by Arny Krueger
Looks like that stage was an accident waiting to happen. I doubt that any
professional engineer signed off on that!

An alarming lack of diagonals / triangulation. See a rectangle turn into a
parallelogram.

** The video looked like a house of cards supported by a pile of bad Meccano
with loose bolts.

Horrible.

.... Phil

Peter Larsen

2011-08-14 12:52:28 UTC

Post by Joe Kotroczo
Seems to become a regular occurence now.
<http://www.indystar.com/article/20110813/NEWS15/110813003/Dozen-hurt-State-Fair-stage-collapse>

So perhaps it is the wrong way to implement a roof over a stage? - perhaps
the tarpaulin carrying structure should not also be gear-carrying.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

Marc Amsterdam

2011-08-14 12:56:12 UTC

Post by Joe Kotroczo
Seems to become a regular occurence now.
<http://www.indystar.com/article/20110813/NEWS15/110813003/Dozen-hurt-State-Fair-stage-collapse>

Post by Peter Larsen
perhaps it is the wrong way to implement a roof over a stage? - perhaps
the tarpaulin carrying structure should not also be gear-carrying.

I second that!

Marc

Post by Peter Larsen
Kind regards
Peter Larsen

Richard Webb

2011-08-14 18:41:05 UTC

Post by Joe Kotroczo
Seems to become a regular occurence now.

perhaps it is the wrong way to implement a roof over a stage? - perhaps
the tarpaulin carrying structure should not also be gear-carrying.

I second that!

I'd agree as well. RAther stupid, support the "lid"
separately from all the gear carrying components. Those of
us who work with those triangular towers in radio
applications as well are always thinking about proper guying and wind loading. A lot of times what I"ve seen for those
is what we call ROhn 25 or its equivalent, at least if it's
from the ROhn company. Maybe if they're going to support
the lid and all the gear rigged up there they should go to
ROhn 45, which is made to specs allowing more sections for a taller tower, and heavier wind loads. Still proper guying
and support is necessary.
When we use that type of triangular tower in radio apps
usually we provide a good base of concrete, and either rebar or one tower section mostly encased in the concrete. Not
practical for a stage application, but that means better guy wire support at least imho.

Regards,
Richard
... Remote audio in the southland: See www.gatasound.com
--
| Remove .my.foot for email
| via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet<->Internet Gateway Site
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.

Denny Strauser

2011-08-14 18:21:11 UTC

Post by Richard Webb

Post by Joe Kotroczo
Seems to become a regular occurence now.

perhaps it is the wrong way to implement a roof over a stage? - perhaps
the tarpaulin carrying structure should not also be gear-carrying.

I second that!

This kind of accident seems to be happening on a regular basis. Maybe it
is cheaper to buy liability insurance than to buy rigging that is safe.
This will likely change as insurance rates go up. In any case, no one
wants the publicity that is created by accidents like this. At some
point, governmental agencies will mandate high standards for such
structures. Maybe they should ...

- Denny

Marc Amsterdam

2011-08-15 09:34:26 UTC

Post by Denny Strauser

Post by Richard Webb

Post by Joe Kotroczo
Seems to become a regular occurence now.

perhaps it is the wrong way to implement a roof over a stage? - perhaps
the tarpaulin carrying structure should not also be gear-carrying.

I second that!

I'd agree as well. RAther stupid, support the "lid"
separately from all the gear carrying components. Those of
us who work with those triangular towers in radio
applications as well are always thinking about proper guying and wind
loading. A lot of times what I"ve seen for those
is what we call ROhn 25 or its equivalent, at least if it's
from the ROhn company. Maybe if they're going to support
the lid and all the gear rigged up there they should go to
ROhn 45, which is made to specs allowing more sections for a taller
tower, and heavier wind loads. Still proper guying
and support is necessary.
When we use that type of triangular tower in radio apps
usually we provide a good base of concrete, and either rebar or one
tower section mostly encased in the concrete. Not
practical for a stage application, but that means better guy wire support at least imho.

This kind of accident seems to be happening on a regular basis. Maybe
it is cheaper to buy liability insurance than to buy rigging that is
safe. This will likely change as insurance rates go up. In any case, no
one wants the publicity that is created by accidents like this. At some
point, governmental agencies will mandate high standards for such
structures. Maybe they should ...

Living in the Netherlands we know a thing or two about wind and i can
say most stages over here are extremly well build. Then again, there
always cowboy companies that think the can do better while cheaper.
There's always promoters that go for cheaper...... You only need one to
have an accident like this. I hope somthing good comes from it.

Post by Denny Strauser
- Denny

Joe Kotroczo

2011-08-16 07:33:37 UTC

Post by Marc Amsterdam
Living in the Netherlands we know a thing or two about wind and i can
say most stages over here are extremly well build. Then again, there
always cowboy companies that think the can do better while cheaper.
There's always promoters that go for cheaper...... You only need one to
have an accident like this. I hope somthing good comes from it.

I don't live in mainland Europe anymore, but the Germans have all their
stages inspected before the event by the Tüv, which is an independent
body which carries out technical inspections and certifies the safety of
equipment. Such inspections are required by law over there.

I'm fairly sure a health and safety inspection is also required in the
UK for this type of event, and will not limit itself to the structural
engineering but also stuff such as crowd control and food safety.

I'm curious if such inspections do not exist in the US?

--
Illegitimi non carborundum

Arny Krueger

2011-08-16 13:41:18 UTC

Post by Joe Kotroczo

I don't live in mainland Europe anymore, but the Germans have all their
stages inspected before the event by the Tüv, which is an independent body
which carries out technical inspections and certifies the safety of
equipment. Such inspections are required by law over there.
I'm fairly sure a health and safety inspection is also required in the UK
for this type of event, and will not limit itself to the structural
engineering but also stuff such as crowd control and food safety.
I'm curious if such inspections do not exist in the US?

It is up to the locality:

FYI:

Obits of the dead:

http://www.kndu.com/story/15270949/teacher-advocate-daredevil-among-ind-victims?clienttype=printable
Nathan Byrd, Indianapolis

A month shy of his 52nd birthday, Nathan Byrd was a veteran stagehand known
as a daredevil.

Older brother Randy Byrd, 54, of Indianapolis, said friends and colleagues
knew he would fearlessly scale stage rigs and dubbed him "Save-the-Show
Nate" because he was always willing to take on risky jobs.

"He would push people out of harm's way and take on the more difficult jobs
and do the jobs that were higher risks," Randy Byrd told The Associated
Press.

Nathan Byrd had been working as a stagehand for about 20 years and was one
of the few experienced stagehands light enough - at roughly 140 pounds - to
scale scaffolding and work lighting rigs, his brother said.

The Indianapolis man worked at sites around the city, including Clowes
Memorial Hall on the Butler University campus. Joshua Lingenfelter, director
of marketing for the facility, said Byrd served as spotlight operator for
events including concerts and the Butler Ballet's performance of "The
Nutcracker."

Randy Byrd told The Indianapolis Star his brother wasn't a country music fan
and wasn't looking forward to working the Sugarland show. But he took the
job anyway.

He was about 20 feet above the stage running the spotlight when the stage
rigging collapsed.

bob urz

2011-08-14 18:34:29 UTC

Seems to become a regular occurrence now.
<http://www.indystar.com/article/20110813/NEWS15/110813003/Dozen-hurt-State-Fair-stage-collapse>

So perhaps it is the wrong way to implement a roof over a stage? - perhaps
the tarpaulin carrying structure should not also be gear-carrying.
Kind regards
Peter Larsen

Ok, so how do you do it? and another 5000+ pounds and have two separate
structures?

Modern shows ALL fly gear. All the gear goes up with chain motors.

gear has to be covered to prevent direct water damage or light off the
stage.

The Sugerland show that this happened two had a fair amount of gear
flying including a large round video screen with lights around it.
The show was just here playing an arena.

The only solution to this is additional side supports that will support
larger wind loads. or have emergency drops for the side curtains and
such to reduce the wind loads in an emergency.

You can bet the insurance for people doing these stage tops will go up
significantly in the near future.

Its been a year for disasters. Were having a 500year flood here now
that has farm land and houses flooded ALL summer in the Missouri
river valley. How do you plan for that?

bob

Marc Amsterdam

2011-08-15 09:41:06 UTC

Post by bob urz
Its been a year for disasters. Were having a 500year flood here now
that has farm land and houses flooded ALL summer in the Missouri
river valley. How do you plan for that?

take a boat... ?

Post by bob urz
bob

Bob Howes

2011-08-16 06:36:15 UTC

Post by Joe Kotroczo
Seems to become a regular occurence now.
<http://www.indystar.com/article/20110813/NEWS15/110813003/Dozen-hurt-State-Fair-stage-collapse>

So perhaps it is the wrong way to implement a roof over a stage? - perhaps
the tarpaulin carrying structure should not also be gear-carrying.
Kind regards
Peter Larsen

Here's a link to the company that apparently did the install.
http://midamericasound.com/wp-content/roof/html/roof1.html I have to say,
their numbers look suspect to me.

I'm far from a rigging expert but The (apparent) hire co's website linked
above says that that structure has a 51,000llb Load capacity.

No way, not at all, absolutely no, uh-uh. Ignoring the complete lack of any
cross bracing, anchoring and the fact it's a stupidly top-heavy design that
still works out at 4250llbs of weight per leg which I'd say is excessive for
ali trussing used in relatively short, unsupported sections.

Quick "back of the envelope" calculations of the wind load on that roof
(assuming roof area of 3000sqr ft) means that the wind load on the roof at
50mph (a low figure for a structure of that height) would be 35,000lbs alone
without making any allowance for the sail effect created by the speakers and
backdrop.

I'm sure others can be more scientific and exact. However, I grew up on the
North American prairies and know that we had several storms a year that
would blow up in the evening after a hot, sultry day giving us gusts of wind
well over that 50mph figure. They'd blow up quickly and disappear just as
fast--but the use of temporary structures like this one has to be a pretty
serious risk in that part of the world.

Joe Kotroczo

2011-08-16 07:37:18 UTC

Post by Bob Howes
Here's a link to the company that apparently did the install.
http://midamericasound.com/wp-content/roof/html/roof1.html I have to say,
their numbers look suspect to me.
I'm far from a rigging expert but The (apparent) hire co's website linked
above says that that structure has a 51,000llb Load capacity.

Unfortunately Thomas don't provide any info at all on their website:

<http://www.jthomaseng.com/roofsystems.htm>

--
Illegitimi non carborundum

Arny Krueger

2011-08-16 12:00:08 UTC

Post by Bob Howes

Post by Joe Kotroczo
Seems to become a regular occurence now.
<http://www.indystar.com/article/20110813/NEWS15/110813003/Dozen-hurt-State-Fair-stage-collapse>

So perhaps it is the wrong way to implement a roof over a stage? -
perhaps the tarpaulin carrying structure should not also be
gear-carrying.
Kind regards
Peter Larsen

Here's a link to the company that apparently did the install.
http://midamericasound.com/wp-content/roof/html/roof1.html I have to say,
their numbers look suspect to me.
I'm far from a rigging expert but The (apparent) hire co's website linked
above says that that structure has a 51,000llb Load capacity.
No way, not at all, absolutely no, uh-uh. Ignoring the complete lack of
any cross bracing, anchoring and the fact it's a stupidly top-heavy design
that still works out at 4250llbs of weight per leg which I'd say is
excessive for ali trussing used in relatively short, unsupported sections.
Quick "back of the envelope" calculations of the wind load on that roof
(assuming roof area of 3000sqr ft) means that the wind load on the roof at
50mph (a low figure for a structure of that height) would be 35,000lbs
alone without making any allowance for the sail effect created by the
speakers and backdrop.
I'm sure others can be more scientific and exact. However, I grew up on
the North American prairies and know that we had several storms a year
that would blow up in the evening after a hot, sultry day giving us gusts
of wind well over that 50mph figure. They'd blow up quickly and disappear
just as fast--but the use of temporary structures like this one has to be
a pretty serious risk in that part of the world.

Thanks for clarifying what I was trying to say before the usual suspects
again tried to ruin the discussion by spouting their usual inance nonsense.
Their curent position is that the structure was adequate, which is a pretty
novel position to take given that we now know that it collapsed during a
kind of storm that is pretty common in the midwest during August.

That the structure was inadequate is obvious - it collapsed under weather
conditions that were both foreseeable and has now been revealed, actually
foreseen.

Now that we know that a lighting guy was ordered up into the structure as
the storm was approaching, perhaps inter-poster animosity can be quelled
long enough for people to "get it".

It's safe to predict that at the very least, insurance costs will increase
dramatically.

Marc Amsterdam

2011-08-18 07:20:34 UTC

Post by Arny Krueger
Thanks for clarifying what I was trying to say before the usual
suspects again tried to ruin the discussion by spouting their usual
inance nonsense. Their curent position is that the structure was
adequate, which is a pretty novel position to take given that we now
know that it collapsed during a kind of storm that is pretty common in
the midwest during August.
That the structure was inadequate is obvious - it collapsed under
weather conditions that were both foreseeable and has now been
revealed, actually foreseen.
Now that we know that a lighting guy was ordered up into the structure
as the storm was approaching, perhaps inter-poster animosity can be
quelled long enough for people to "get it".
It's safe to predict that at the very least, insurance costs will
increase dramatically.

Thank you Arny, Now next thing you can say that it was the usual
suspects fault that stage collapsed. Or maybe your usual suspect up
in the sky that send the high winds.....

Get it? No, you dont get it!

Arny Krueger

2011-08-18 11:47:27 UTC

Or maybe your usual suspect up in the sky that send the high winds.....
Get it? No, you dont get it!

What I get Marc is that you still don't seem to realize how common the
weather conditions were for this area and this time of the year.

The same logic blames the being you childishly refer to as the "usual
suspect in the sky" for the sinking of the Titanic.

Phil Allison

2011-08-18 12:19:49 UTC

"Arny Krueger"

"Marc Amsterdam"

Or maybe your usual suspect up in the sky that send the high winds.....
Get it? No, you dont get it!

What I get Marc is that you still don't seem to realize how common the
weather conditions were for this area and this time of the year.
The same logic blames the being you childishly refer to as the "usual
suspect in the sky" for the sinking of the Titanic.

** Marc is one of those congenital half wits who imagines it clever
to walk around at gigs wearing a T- shirt that says on the back:

" SHIT HAPPENS "

.... Phil

Denny Strauser

2011-08-18 18:39:20 UTC

Post by Phil Allison
** Marc is one of those congenital half wits who imagines it clever
" SHIT HAPPENS "

At Grateful Dead shows the Tee-shirts said "Shit Happened"

- Denny

Marc Amsterdam

2011-08-18 20:12:36 UTC

Post by Denny Strauser

Post by Phil Allison
** Marc is one of those congenital half wits who imagines it clever
" SHIT HAPPENS "

At Grateful Dead shows the Tee-shirts said "Shit Happened"

And it just did,
In our neigbouring country Belgium.

Post by Denny Strauser
- Denny

gregz

2011-08-17 01:30:31 UTC

Post by Bob Howes

Post by Joe Kotroczo
Seems to become a regular occurence now.
<http://www.indystar.com/article/20110813/NEWS15/110813003/Dozen-hurt-State-Fair-stage-collapse>

So perhaps it is the wrong way to implement a roof over a stage? -
perhaps > the tarpaulin carrying structure should not also be gear-carrying.
Kind regards
Peter Larsen

Here's a link to the company that apparently did the install.
http://midamericasound.com/wp-content/roof/html/roof1.html I have to
say, their numbers look suspect to me.
I'm far from a rigging expert but The (apparent) hire co's website linked
above says that that structure has a 51,000llb Load capacity.
No way, not at all, absolutely no, uh-uh. Ignoring the complete lack of
any cross bracing, anchoring and the fact it's a stupidly top-heavy
design that still works out at 4250llbs of weight per leg which I'd say
is excessive for ali trussing used in relatively short, unsupported sections.
Quick "back of the envelope" calculations of the wind load on that roof
(assuming roof area of 3000sqr ft) means that the wind load on the roof
at 50mph (a low figure for a structure of that height) would be 35,000lbs
alone without making any allowance for the sail effect created by the
speakers and backdrop.
I'm sure others can be more scientific and exact. However, I grew up on
the North American prairies and know that we had several storms a year
that would blow up in the evening after a hot, sultry day giving us gusts
of wind well over that 50mph figure. They'd blow up quickly and
disappear just as fast--but the use of temporary structures like this one
has to be a pretty serious risk in that part of the world.

I don't think anyone would approve it as a permanent installation, why
would it go for a temporary installation?

I know what it's like to try and walk in 70mph wind. Occurs almost every
year in the desert. A gust would knock you over.

Greg

Ty Ford

2011-08-14 13:30:06 UTC

Post by Joe Kotroczo
Seems to become a regular occurence now.

<http://www.indystar.com/article/20110813/NEWS15/110813003/Dozen-hurt-State-
Fa

Post by Joe Kotroczo
ir-stage-collapse>

Ouch!

The fattening of America coming home to roost?

Regards,

Ty Ford

--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar

alex

2011-08-15 00:43:58 UTC

Post by Joe Kotroczo
Seems to become a regular occurence now.
<http://www.indystar.com/article/20110813/NEWS15/110813003/Dozen-hurt-State-Fair-stage-collapse>

sadly, i had a close friend who died that way at age of 20, back in
1990. He was working as local support crew member...
I should admit that i still avoid to jump on a stage during the ring
movement procedure... I still have that picture in front of me.

alex

Bigguy2010

2011-08-16 14:53:27 UTC