Discussion:
Vocal mic doubling as harmonica mic
(too old to reply)
Steve White
2005-12-30 10:47:59 UTC
Permalink
Hi all,

Anyone care to share any thoughts on how to best treat a vocal mic that
doubles as an occasional Harmonica mic. Should I just go for the best vocal
sound I can get and live with the sound that gives the harmonica?

Cheers,
Steve W
Carey D
2005-12-30 11:07:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve White
Anyone care to share any thoughts on how to best treat a vocal mic that
doubles as an occasional Harmonica mic. Should I just go for the best vocal
sound I can get and live with the sound that gives the harmonica?
Whatever works best for you. I would go for vocal. The vocal carries
the song and is usually the hardest sound to get right. In my
experience the occasional harmonica or flute sounds just fine on a good
vocal mic, although a quick hand on the fader can be needed.

Alternatively you could split the mic into two channels and toggle the
mutes, but that may not be worth the trouble if the change over is
occasional or quick.
Regards,
Carey
s***@gmail.com
2012-10-31 16:20:43 UTC
Permalink

Pooh Bear
2005-12-30 13:14:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve White
Hi all,
Anyone care to share any thoughts on how to best treat a vocal mic that
doubles as an occasional Harmonica mic. Should I just go for the best vocal
sound I can get and live with the sound that gives the harmonica?
Yes.

You already said the harmonica was only used occasionally. No contest really.
Far more important that the vocals have a chance to sound decent.

Graham
Ron(UK)
2005-12-30 14:48:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
Post by Steve White
Hi all,
Anyone care to share any thoughts on how to best treat a vocal mic that
doubles as an occasional Harmonica mic. Should I just go for the best vocal
sound I can get and live with the sound that gives the harmonica?
Yes.
You already said the harmonica was only used occasionally. No contest really.
Far more important that the vocals have a chance to sound decent.
Graham
I`d have a compressor on it. You would probabbly find that if the player
keeps well away from the mike the eq won`t be to bad as it is. The money
is on the vocals, keep that as good as you can.
Otherwise, the biggest problem you might have is feedback through the
monitors due to the performer cupping his hands around the mike.

all IMHO of course

Ron(UK)
--
Lune Valley Audio
Public address system
Hire, Sales, Repairs
www.lunevalleyaudio.com
Zigakly
2005-12-30 17:10:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve White
Anyone care to share any thoughts on how to best treat a vocal mic that
doubles as an occasional Harmonica mic. Should I just go for the best
vocal sound I can get and live with the sound that gives the harmonica?
This is another reason I'm so fond of my AKG D880's. They have a very
tolerant upper midrage / low treble, as if there's a compressor on that
frequency range, yet they're very resistent to feedback. So when switching
between vocal and harmonica duties I rarely have to touch an EQ. They also
work well when cupped.

Just avoid SM58's like the plague and you're halfway home.
Robert McTigue
2005-12-30 17:57:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve White
Anyone care to share any thoughts on how to best treat a vocal mic that
doubles as an occasional Harmonica mic. Should I just go for the best
vocal sound I can get and live with the sound that gives the harmonica?
You could split the signal into two channels and have an eq for voc and
an eq for harp.
Gene Sweeny
2005-12-30 18:07:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zigakly
Post by Steve White
Anyone care to share any thoughts on how to best treat a vocal mic that
doubles as an occasional Harmonica mic. Should I just go for the best
vocal sound I can get and live with the sound that gives the harmonica?
This is another reason I'm so fond of my AKG D880's. They have a very
tolerant upper midrage / low treble, as if there's a compressor on that
frequency range, yet they're very resistent to feedback. So when switching
between vocal and harmonica duties I rarely have to touch an EQ. They also
work well when cupped.
Just avoid SM58's like the plague and you're halfway home.
Why is it the harmonica players I've worked with insisted on a SM58. He liked
to occasionaly sit the mic on the floor also instead of using the stand.

One thing I *didn't* think to check when I was ringing the monitors out. "uhh,
can you sit it on the floor?"
Robert
2005-12-30 18:55:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gene Sweeny
Why is it the harmonica players I've worked with insisted on a SM58.
I play a bit of harmonica. I guess it's to do with the shape. It's easier to
cup the mic and hold the harmonica with the more bulbous shape of the SM58
compared with a mic with the shape of an SM57.

Think of the design of a green bullet..

Robert
Ron(UK)
2005-12-30 19:02:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gene Sweeny
Why is it the harmonica players I've worked with insisted on a SM58. He
liked to occasionaly sit the mic on the floor also instead of using the
stand.
Hey I think I might have worked with that guy! A certain Brit guy lives
in Chicago!

Ron(UK)
Skeeter
2005-12-30 20:53:55 UTC
Permalink
Hi Gene,

Sympathize with you there! In my earlier, less learned days, I used to
do the same thing. Always using an SM48 or SM58, always cupping the
damn thing, usually placing the mic on the stage floor when it was not
in use.

The SM48-58 thing was because these were the most common vocal mics
when I was first performing in the early 80's. Just got used of them.

Yeah, it was far more comfortable to cup the mic. It took a good
couple of well deserved aural clobberings from a couple of real good
sound engineers (Ian Grandy and Brad Woodcock) to clue me into the
mystery of "Where's that damn feedback coming from?" I quickly learned
to use the mic, my hands, and the harmonica a lot more intelligently.

The harmonica generally does not have much of a frequency range. Even
the piercing "F" harp barely gets tweeters excited. An extended range,
quality mic is not necessary and can be undesirable at times. So the
Shures remain in vogue for popularity due to commonality and simply
that they can get it done in a familiar context for most players.

Why, oh why do harmonica players want to place the mic on the floor??
Well, it just makes sure that no one else will be "borrowing" your mic
on a part time basis for harmonies when you may need it for "that harp
part right now". Harmonica is generally applied in an intermittent
fashion... here and there throughout the performance. If a microphone
is left unused on a mic stand, the bass player (or whoever) that does
not normally have a mic, may get a great idea to sing harmony on this
mic that is not being used by anyone. Then the harmonica player who
may have been playing congas, piano, or something else now needs that
mic. Things can get difficult for the harmonica player and the sound
engineer when chaos creeps in. Whenever I feel a need to use this
strategy, I signal the sound engineer to mute the channel when I put
the mic on the stage floor.

Thus, some performance philosophy from a harp player.

Cheers,
Skeeter
mcsteve
2005-12-30 22:42:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Skeeter
Why, oh why do harmonica players want to place the mic on the floor??
Things can get difficult for the harmonica player and the sound
engineer when chaos creeps in. Whenever I feel a need to use this
strategy, I signal the sound engineer to mute the channel when I put
the mic on the stage floor.
Any engineer, FOH or mons, who *doesn't* mute a mic that's
been placed on the floor, shouldn't be anywhere near a mix
position.

-------------------------------
Steve McQ

Usually found at stage left
Gene Sweeny
2005-12-31 02:35:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by mcsteve
Post by Skeeter
Why, oh why do harmonica players want to place the mic on the floor??
Things can get difficult for the harmonica player and the sound
engineer when chaos creeps in. Whenever I feel a need to use this
strategy, I signal the sound engineer to mute the channel when I put
the mic on the stage floor.
Any engineer, FOH or mons, who *doesn't* mute a mic that's
been placed on the floor, shouldn't be anywhere near a mix
position.
It is nice when the muso warns you though. I swear they wait till I'm *not*
looking.
Skeeter
2005-12-30 18:49:25 UTC
Permalink
Hi Steve,

I sing lead and harmony vocals, and I play lead and
rythym/chording/background styles of harmonica. More often than not, I
end up using a vocal microphone to play harmonica through as well.

This is not the most comfortable situation as it is a natural harmonica
handling technique to cup the microphone while playing. This will
normally spell disaster in the form of huge amounts of feedback being
generated if a cardiod type vocal mic is used. Because cardiod type
microphones (cardiod, super cardiod, hyper cardiod, et al) are the most
common type of microphones in stage use, this will normally be a "bad
practice" to cup the hands around the microphone. Avoid this harmonica
handling technique and you will eliminate 90% of the potential sound
issues.

Approach the microphone with your hands holding the harmonica as you
would if there was no microphone in use. Open your hands a little
toward the windscreen of the microphone and find a distance and hand
opening that will provide a suitable volume level for the harmonica.
Do not allow your hands to embrace the sides of the windscreen! That's
when the feedback trouble begins.

My vocal is particularly strong and loud. When playing the harmonica,
I find that if I open my hands a little and keep a distance of around 1
inch away from the windscreen, I then have a workable balance between
the my vocal and my harmonica. Vary the size of your hand opening and
the amount of wind pressure on the harmonica reeds to regulate the tone
and volume of your harmonica. It takes practice, and a decent monitor
feed to learn how to balance, but it can be accomplished if you work it
a bit.

I also use a harmonica brace when playing guitar or piano. I find that
I need to get this a little closer to the microphone as I cannot
generate nearly as much pressure on the harmonica reeds while using the
brace. Usually end up with the harmonica pretty close to touching the
windscreen most of the time using a brace.

The best setup is using separate microphones, with one mic being my
vintage green bullet for ripping Chicago style electric blues or rock
styles. This mic has a separate volume control on the mic, plus it
colours the sound with compression and distortion that is desirable for
electric blues. These types of "harmonica microphones" are low fi, and
all about tone. They mostly can be held cupped without nearly the
feedback problems of vocal mics.

There are however, some selections that are much better played cleanly
through a vocal microphone. Listen to Charlie Musselwhite or Carlos
del Junco for a good spectrum of clean blues, rock, country, jazz,
etc... played through a vocal microphone.

So yeah, you can work this together on the same vocal mic. It's been
done to death by myself and many others. It will even work with an
SM58 if that's all you've got. Hell, I saw Charlie Musselwhite using
an SM58 while playing with B.B. King and it sounded great. There are
better microphones than the SM58, but a good performer will always find
a way to transcend equipment limitations.

Cheers,
Skeeter (aka "Harpmeister")
Zigakly
2006-01-02 07:42:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Skeeter
This is not the most comfortable situation as it is a natural harmonica
handling technique to cup the microphone while playing. This will
normally spell disaster in the form of huge amounts of feedback being
generated if a cardiod type vocal mic is used.
Nowadays a vocal mic that doesn't behave well when cupped should be
considered a flawed design. Just because SM58's are terrible for it,
doesn't mean all vocal mics should be excluded.
Ty Ford
2006-01-02 18:36:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zigakly
Post by Skeeter
This is not the most comfortable situation as it is a natural harmonica
handling technique to cup the microphone while playing. This will
normally spell disaster in the form of huge amounts of feedback being
generated if a cardiod type vocal mic is used.
Nowadays a vocal mic that doesn't behave well when cupped should be
considered a flawed design. Just because SM58's are terrible for it,
doesn't mean all vocal mics should be excluded.
Conversely, anytime you block the back ports on a directional mic, you will
markedly alter its sound and directional capabilities. The laws of physics
can not be ignored.

Regards,

Ty Ford


-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com
Zigakly
2006-01-08 10:07:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ty Ford
Post by Zigakly
Nowadays a vocal mic that doesn't behave well when cupped should be
considered a flawed design. Just because SM58's are terrible for it,
doesn't mean all vocal mics should be excluded.
Conversely, anytime you block the back ports on a directional mic, you will
markedly alter its sound and directional capabilities. The laws of physics
can not be ignored.
Ignored - no

Disregarded - depends on the mic

Cup a 58 and cup any self-respecting mic, tell me the 58 is worth having on
any self-respecting stage, and I'll glady have what you're smoking.
Pooh Bear
2006-01-08 10:59:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zigakly
Post by Ty Ford
Post by Zigakly
Nowadays a vocal mic that doesn't behave well when cupped should be
considered a flawed design. Just because SM58's are terrible for it,
doesn't mean all vocal mics should be excluded.
Conversely, anytime you block the back ports on a directional mic, you will
markedly alter its sound and directional capabilities. The laws of physics
can not be ignored.
Ignored - no
Disregarded - depends on the mic
Cup a 58 and cup any self-respecting mic, tell me the 58 is worth having on
any self-respecting stage, and I'll glady have what you're smoking.
I think Ty was making the point about the difference between pressure gradient
and pressure operated microphones. The critical difference that makes cardioids
possible.

The function of the 'enclosure' in this respect is quite critical. That's indeed
why cupping a mic makes it feed back, by destroying its directional response.

Graham
Ty Ford
2006-01-08 18:27:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
Post by Zigakly
Post by Ty Ford
Post by Zigakly
Nowadays a vocal mic that doesn't behave well when cupped should be
considered a flawed design. Just because SM58's are terrible for it,
doesn't mean all vocal mics should be excluded.
Conversely, anytime you block the back ports on a directional mic, you will
markedly alter its sound and directional capabilities. The laws of physics
can not be ignored.
Ignored - no
Disregarded - depends on the mic
Cup a 58 and cup any self-respecting mic, tell me the 58 is worth having on
any self-respecting stage, and I'll glady have what you're smoking.
I think Ty was making the point about the difference between pressure gradient
and pressure operated microphones. The critical difference that makes cardioids
possible.
The function of the 'enclosure' in this respect is quite critical. That's indeed
why cupping a mic makes it feed back, by destroying its directional response.
Graham
Persactly!

Ty Ford


-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com
Skeeter
2006-01-02 20:01:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zigakly
Post by Skeeter
This is not the most comfortable situation as it is a natural harmonica
handling technique to cup the microphone while playing. This will
normally spell disaster in the form of huge amounts of feedback being
generated if a cardiod type vocal mic is used.
Nowadays a vocal mic that doesn't behave well when cupped should be
considered a flawed design. Just because SM58's are terrible for it,
doesn't mean all vocal mics should be excluded.
Any time that a musician cups a directional microphone it negates the
design of a directional mic. Feedback opportunity will increase, tonal
performance is impaired, and the microphone no longer can function as a
directional microphone.

Cupping the microphone and harmonica in your hands as a single unit
also eliminates many very useful options for tone, volume, and vibrato
as well. I'm not saying that this technique is totally useless though.
In some situations, it may be desirable if used skilfully to achieve a
certain muddy sounding distortion effect.

It is normally preferable to only cup your hands around the harmonica.
This allows full control of tone, volume, and vibrato effects from
using different hand manipulations that are not possible when
simultaneously holding the harmonica and cupping a microphone.

The use of a separate, low-fi, high harmonic distortion microphone is
essential to achieve many of the Chicago style rocking blues sounds.
Even cupping a good vocal microphone that is set to deliver a proper
vocal will not come anywhere close to the thick, delicious distortion
of a real harmonica mic.

Going for a clean tone and having full control of the harmonica is
almost always preferable when using a vocal mic.

The SM58 is not really much better or worse than most vocal microphones
in regards to feedback opportunity increasing due to cupping. It is
not a terrific vocal microphone. It is a very common mic, is very
durable, and can double as a hammer when required. I personally prefer
using the Audix OM5's and OM7's for stage vocals. Your AKG
recommendation is a good vocal microphone with a smooth extended top
range, but a little more sensitive to vocal popping then most.
Definitely preferable to the SM58 for vocals... could be a tough choice
against a Beta 58 though.

I use a wide variety of microphones in my stage rigs. Mostly Audix,
Shure, AKG, Sennheiser, a few Crowns, and even a couple of old AT's. I
keep quite a few Shures around because quite a few musicians still
insist on a SM57 or SM58. I think it's ingrained into the history of
music culture and don't know better yet.

Cheers,
Skeeter (aka Harpmeister)
Paul Matthews
2006-01-01 21:48:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve White
Hi all,
Anyone care to share any thoughts on how to best treat a vocal mic that
doubles as an occasional Harmonica mic. Should I just go for the best vocal
sound I can get and live with the sound that gives the harmonica?
Vocal is the most important channel in the mix. Get the vocal right. Biggest
problem may be levels if a quiet singer.
--
Paul Matthews
***@cattytown.me.uk
http://www.hepcats.co.uk
j***@gmail.com
2012-08-16 17:30:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve White
Hi all,
Anyone care to share any thoughts on how to best treat a vocal mic that
doubles as an occasional Harmonica mic. Should I just go for the best vocal
sound I can get and live with the sound that gives the harmonica?
Cheers,
Steve W
This might work for you:

Dual Harp holder for SM58

Les Cargill
2012-08-16 17:42:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@gmail.com
Post by Steve White
Hi all,
Anyone care to share any thoughts on how to best treat a vocal mic that
doubles as an occasional Harmonica mic. Should I just go for the best vocal
sound I can get and live with the sound that gives the harmonica?
Cheers,
Steve W
Dual Harp holder for SM58
http://youtu.be/wVklCRJ7H_8
2005? :) that one's been in the queue for a while...

--
Les Cargill
B***@the.controls
2012-08-17 16:31:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Les Cargill
Post by j***@gmail.com
Post by Steve White
Hi all,
Anyone care to share any thoughts on how to best treat a vocal mic that
doubles as an occasional Harmonica mic. Should I just go for the best vocal
sound I can get and live with the sound that gives the harmonica?
Cheers,
Steve W
Dual Harp holder for SM58
http://youtu.be/wVklCRJ7H_8
2005? :) that one's been in the queue for a while...
It's what happens when someone reads GoogleGroups :)

They look and reply while ignoring the date of the article that they're
responding to.

For a long time I had and GoogleGroup posters automatically killfiled.

BJ
Only users lose drugs.

ROT13 this <***@hfn.arg> to contact me.
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