USB 2.0 sound devices

[Les Cargill]

I recently bought a Focusrite Scarlett 18i20. Nice box. Offers
ADAT Lightpipe, so with an ADA8000 or same, you're up to 16 channels
quickly.

With the addition of Reaper, I now have a really flexible ( but
complicated ) digital mixer - albeit one with 10 msec latency. The
latency really doesn't seem that odd, even in headphones, which is
surprising. After all, 10 feet, right?

The original use case of Reaper was foldback for home recording. I
actually use a different DAW in parallel w. Reaper. The Scarlett
has a MixControl app for driving its internal mixer, but it offers
no F/X - I like a little verb in the headphones. Yes, I can use
outboard - especially S/PDIF outboard - but thought I'd try
this first.

I know people use things like this for live mixing. It seems that
the addition of a long haul USB 2.0 over CAT 5 UTP "modem" would
be a very nice live console setup. The lack of faders is a bit
disconcerting, but I could live with it, assuming a MIDI control
surface doesn't solve *that* problem.

The UTP cable would be the "snake." Keep four of 'em; if one fails,
replace it. The Icron USB ROVER claims 164 feet.

Seem that being able to recall the basic routing, F/X and
fader positions is a big plus. Reaper needs a lot of screen, but
those arent too expensive - a 32" HDTV is not bad at all, and
a lot of desktops even support HDMI these days.

Downside is - the trimpots are up on the stage.

Any stories on something like this? Seems rock solid, and seems to
be much easier w.r.t cartage and setup.

--
Les Cargill

[Rupert]

Post by Les Cargill
I recently bought a Focusrite Scarlett 18i20. Nice box. Offers
ADAT Lightpipe, so with an ADA8000 or same, you're up to 16 channels
quickly.
With the addition of Reaper, I now have a really flexible ( but
complicated ) digital mixer - albeit one with 10 msec latency. The
latency really doesn't seem that odd, even in headphones, which is
surprising. After all, 10 feet, right?
The original use case of Reaper was foldback for home recording. I
actually use a different DAW in parallel w. Reaper. The Scarlett
has a MixControl app for driving its internal mixer, but it offers
no F/X - I like a little verb in the headphones. Yes, I can use
outboard - especially S/PDIF outboard - but thought I'd try
this first.
I know people use things like this for live mixing. It seems that
the addition of a long haul USB 2.0 over CAT 5 UTP "modem" would
be a very nice live console setup. The lack of faders is a bit
disconcerting, but I could live with it, assuming a MIDI control
surface doesn't solve *that* problem.
The UTP cable would be the "snake." Keep four of 'em; if one fails,
replace it. The Icron USB ROVER claims 164 feet.
Seem that being able to recall the basic routing, F/X and
fader positions is a big plus. Reaper needs a lot of screen, but
those arent too expensive - a 32" HDTV is not bad at all, and
a lot of desktops even support HDMI these days.
Downside is - the trimpots are up on the stage.
Any stories on something like this? Seems rock solid, and seems to
be much easier w.r.t cartage and setup.
--
Les Cargill

The whole thing sounds like a bad idea. Excessive latency, lack of a real control surface, and no recallable head amps is a non-starter for live sound use in my opinion. SAC is a no go for similar reasons.

[Les Cargill]

Post by Rupert

Post by Les Cargill
I recently bought a Focusrite Scarlett 18i20. Nice box. Offers
ADAT Lightpipe, so with an ADA8000 or same, you're up to 16
channels quickly.
With the addition of Reaper, I now have a really flexible ( but
complicated ) digital mixer - albeit one with 10 msec latency. The
latency really doesn't seem that odd, even in headphones, which is
surprising. After all, 10 feet, right?
The original use case of Reaper was foldback for home recording.
I actually use a different DAW in parallel w. Reaper. The Scarlett
has a MixControl app for driving its internal mixer, but it offers
no F/X - I like a little verb in the headphones. Yes, I can use
outboard - especially S/PDIF outboard - but thought I'd try this
first.
I know people use things like this for live mixing. It seems that
the addition of a long haul USB 2.0 over CAT 5 UTP "modem" would be
a very nice live console setup. The lack of faders is a bit
disconcerting, but I could live with it, assuming a MIDI control
surface doesn't solve *that* problem.
The UTP cable would be the "snake." Keep four of 'em; if one
fails, replace it. The Icron USB ROVER claims 164 feet.
Seem that being able to recall the basic routing, F/X and fader
positions is a big plus. Reaper needs a lot of screen, but those
arent too expensive - a 32" HDTV is not bad at all, and a lot of
desktops even support HDMI these days. Downside is - the trimpots
are up on the stage. Any stories on something like this? Seems rock
solid, and seems to be much easier w.r.t cartage and setup.
--
Les Cargill

The whole thing sounds like a bad idea.

I hear ya. Still...

Post by Rupert
Excessive latency,

I would have thought that , too. But as it turns out, 10msec
( which is well uder the main body of the Haas limit ) isn't that
noticeable - even when you have bleed into headphones.

10 msec is 10 feet, roughly.

Post by Rupert
lack of a
real control surface,

There are control surfaces. I'd think the Behringer would
be a start; it's $250 for eight faders plus an assortment
of knobs. They get pretty expensive quickly past
that.

Then again, I "set it and forget it."

Post by Rupert
and no recallable head amps

trimpot settings? Yeah, I stipulated
to that. But that's going to be a setup thing no matter what,
I bet.

You *could* use a traditional snake and have the D/A-A/D
close to the mix position.

You could also add an inert/pre-effect to Reaper that allows you
to attenuate the signal going into the "channel strip". One thing
about the Scarlett is - you don't have to run it even close to
full scale - it's got a lot of makeup gain on the monitor out. So
you can set the physical trimpots to where nothing gets above -20dB -
ever - and make that up on the insert.

It's got like 120 dB of actually useable digital dynamic range.
And I ave a coupe of VSTplugins that will by-God clamp the 2-buss
so there are zero samples above 0dBFS - period. Sure, it clips
in the digital domain, but your amps aren't seeing anything above
0dBFS.

Post by Rupert
is a non-starter
for live sound use in my opinion. SAC is a no go for similar
reasons.

SAC is a no-go because $500. reaper meets its advertised latency
( advertised whn you select the audio device ) as I measured it. And
I havent' even played with 96ksamp; that should have like a third or
half the latency.

--
Les Cargill

[Rupert]

Post by Les Cargill

Post by Rupert

Post by Les Cargill
I recently bought a Focusrite Scarlett 18i20. Nice box. Offers
ADAT Lightpipe, so with an ADA8000 or same, you're up to 16
channels quickly.
With the addition of Reaper, I now have a really flexible ( but
complicated ) digital mixer - albeit one with 10 msec latency. The
latency really doesn't seem that odd, even in headphones, which is
surprising. After all, 10 feet, right?
The original use case of Reaper was foldback for home recording.
I actually use a different DAW in parallel w. Reaper. The Scarlett
has a MixControl app for driving its internal mixer, but it offers
no F/X - I like a little verb in the headphones. Yes, I can use
outboard - especially S/PDIF outboard - but thought I'd try this
first.
I know people use things like this for live mixing. It seems that
the addition of a long haul USB 2.0 over CAT 5 UTP "modem" would be
a very nice live console setup. The lack of faders is a bit
disconcerting, but I could live with it, assuming a MIDI control
surface doesn't solve *that* problem.
The UTP cable would be the "snake." Keep four of 'em; if one
fails, replace it. The Icron USB ROVER claims 164 feet.
Seem that being able to recall the basic routing, F/X and fader
positions is a big plus. Reaper needs a lot of screen, but those
arent too expensive - a 32" HDTV is not bad at all, and a lot of
desktops even support HDMI these days. Downside is - the trimpots
are up on the stage. Any stories on something like this? Seems rock
solid, and seems to be much easier w.r.t cartage and setup.
--
Les Cargill

The whole thing sounds like a bad idea.

I hear ya. Still...

Post by Rupert
Excessive latency,

I would have thought that , too. But as it turns out, 10msec
( which is well uder the main body of the Haas limit ) isn't that
noticeable - even when you have bleed into headphones.
10 msec is 10 feet, roughly.

Post by Rupert
lack of a
real control surface,

There are control surfaces. I'd think the Behringer would
be a start; it's $250 for eight faders plus an assortment
of knobs. They get pretty expensive quickly past
that.
Then again, I "set it and forget it."

Post by Rupert
and no recallable head amps

trimpot settings? Yeah, I stipulated
to that. But that's going to be a setup thing no matter what,
I bet.
You *could* use a traditional snake and have the D/A-A/D
close to the mix position.
You could also add an inert/pre-effect to Reaper that allows you
to attenuate the signal going into the "channel strip". One thing
about the Scarlett is - you don't have to run it even close to
full scale - it's got a lot of makeup gain on the monitor out. So
you can set the physical trimpots to where nothing gets above -20dB -
ever - and make that up on the insert.
It's got like 120 dB of actually useable digital dynamic range.
And I ave a coupe of VSTplugins that will by-God clamp the 2-buss
so there are zero samples above 0dBFS - period. Sure, it clips
in the digital domain, but your amps aren't seeing anything above
0dBFS.

Post by Rupert
is a non-starter
for live sound use in my opinion. SAC is a no go for similar
reasons.

SAC is a no-go because $500. reaper meets its advertised latency
( advertised whn you select the audio device ) as I measured it. And
I havent' even played with 96ksamp; that should have like a third or
half the latency.
--
Les Cargill

I'm not sure why you posted since it sounds like you've made up your mind regardless of any input. 10 ms is a lot of latency, especially when you add in any other possible digital processing into the chain like a speaker processor which will add more latency. Does Reaper add more latency as you add inserts?

Also, the whole setup sounds pretty cumbersome (by your own admission in the original post) which is something you don't want for live sound. Even the best digital desks have annoying traits in terms of navigation and routing compared to their analog counterparts. Adding more complexity to the operation in a live sound environment is not ideal. Do it right. Spend some money. Make your life easier as well as the life of your client and get a digital live sound desk. You're exactly the customer the Behringer X32 was made for. It's cheap and chock full of shit. By all accounts it sounds good and support is decent. If it's too large for you, you can get one of the smaller surface versions.

[Les Cargill]

<snip>

Post by Rupert
I'm not sure why you posted since it sounds like you've made up your
mind regardless of any input.

Gad, no. I'm still evaluating the idea. Sorry; I just kind of write
that way. Thnks much for your thoughts.

I would think it would be fine for a bar band type thing, though.
Better than the usual MI store mixer. You can really inspect the gain
staging carefully, more than with a LED bar meter.

Post by Rupert
10 ms is a lot of latency,

There, I am pleasantly surprised. I expected it to be a lot worse
sounding than it is. Ten feet is one end of a small bedroom to
the other. I have guitar cables longer than that :)

Post by Rupert
especially
when you add in any other possible digital processing into the chain
like a speaker processor which will add more latency. Does Reaper add
more latency as you add inserts?

Not that I have seen. Dynamics processors should be zero latency;
reverbs are all about delay so it doesn't matter; EQ might be a mix,
but should be mostly either IIR or FIR and in either case, you
can manage the latency to be zero.

The big thing, the advantage here is the quality of some plugins that
are available. Having come from a recording environment, those
are a pretty powerful tool.

Post by Rupert
Also, the whole setup sounds pretty cumbersome (by your own admission
in the original post) which is something you don't want for live
sound.

Somewhat. The display problem is the main one. The stuff you could
rackmount isn't that large. sitting behind a monitor is far from ideal.

Post by Rupert
Even the best digital desks have annoying traits in terms of
navigation and routing compared to their analog counterparts.

Agreed.

Post by Rupert
Adding
more complexity to the operation in a live sound environment is not
ideal. Do it right.

Lot to be said for that.

Post by Rupert
Spend some money.

Only if I am making some.

Post by Rupert
Make your life easier as well
as the life of your client and get a digital live sound desk. You're
exactly the customer the Behringer X32 was made for. It's cheap and
chock full of shit.

For what a digital desk goes for, I'd rather have something like
an A&H ZED-R16 analog desk w/ digital capability. It's a mere 28" wide.

Post by Rupert
By all accounts it sounds good and support is
decent.

This is what I hear as well.

Post by Rupert
If it's too large for you, you can get one of the smaller
surface versions.

--
Les Cargill

[Denny Strauser]

On 9/27/2013 1:04 AM, Denny Strauser wrote:> On 9/25/2013 11:49 PM, Les

Post by Les Cargill
<snip>

Post by Rupert
10 ms is a lot of latency,

There, I am pleasantly surprised. I expected it to be a lot worse
sounding than it is. Ten feet is one end of a small bedroom to
the other. I have guitar cables longer than that :)

Ten feet/ms is quite a bit of temporal offset. A note at 100Hz has
roughly a 10' wavelength. At 50Hz, a 10ms latency would cancel out the
low notes of your bass guitar (low E is about 40Hz), if you set the
cabinets side-by-side.

Post by Les Cargill
Not that I have seen. Dynamics processors should be zero latency;
reverbs are all about delay so it doesn't matter; EQ might be a mix,
but should be mostly either IIR or FIR and in either case, you
can manage the latency to be zero.

All electronics have some latency.

Post by Les Cargill
The big thing, the advantage here is the quality of some plugins that
are available. Having come from a recording environment, those
are a pretty powerful tool.

Post by Rupert
Also, the whole setup sounds pretty cumbersome (by your own admission
in the original post) which is something you don't want for live
sound.

Somewhat. The display problem is the main one. The stuff you could
rackmount isn't that large. sitting behind a monitor is far from ideal.

Post by Rupert
Even the best digital desks have annoying traits in terms of
navigation and routing compared to their analog counterparts.

Agreed.

Post by Rupert
Adding
more complexity to the operation in a live sound environment is not
ideal. Do it right.

Lot to be said for that.

Post by Rupert
Spend some money.

Only if I am making some.

Post by Rupert
Make your life easier as well
as the life of your client and get a digital live sound desk. You're
exactly the customer the Behringer X32 was made for. It's cheap and
chock full of shit.

For what a digital desk goes for, I'd rather have something like
an A&H ZED-R16 analog desk w/ digital capability. It's a mere 28" wide.

Post by Rupert
By all accounts it sounds good and support is
decent.

This is what I hear as well.

Post by Rupert
If it's too large for you, you can get one of the smaller
surface versions.

If you're a set it and leave it bar band, you should look into (and as a
professional soundman, I can't believe I'm recommending this) Behringer
digital boards. Here is one for about $1000 that can be operated with an
iPad: http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/iX16.aspx You don't need any
extra hardware or software. It can do 6 monitor mixes as well as left &
right. You don't need an iPad to run it, but you can you can use a PC or
iPad to run it remotely through Ethernet, LAN, Wi-Fi and USB. You can
stand in the middle of the room with your iPad or laptop & get your mix
together.
I've worked with a number of mid-level bands who use Behringer digital
boards for in-ear monitors. Very little needs to be adjusted from night
to night. I've had to use Behringer digitals for live sound a few times.
They are not easy to navigate unless one uses them frequently. Most
other digitals are easier to navigate if you have experience on any pro
digital boards.
They claim Midas preamps & Lexicon simulated FX. You can save scenes,
which means you can recall different programs for individual songs. If
you hire a soundman, you can keep the mixing board onstage & have your
soundman mix with an iPad ... no need for a snake or any other long

cables.

Something to think about,
Denny

[Denny Strauser]

Post by Les Cargill
<snip>

Post by Rupert
10 ms is a lot of latency,

There, I am pleasantly surprised. I expected it to be a lot worse
sounding than it is. Ten feet is one end of a small bedroom to
the other. I have guitar cables longer than that :)

Ten feet/ms is quite a bit of temporal offset. A note at 100Hz has
roughly a 10' wavelength. At 50Hz, a 10ms latency would cancel out the
low notes of your bass guitar (low E is about 40Hz), if you set the
cabinets side-by-side.

Post by Les Cargill
Not that I have seen. Dynamics processors should be zero latency;
reverbs are all about delay so it doesn't matter; EQ might be a mix,
but should be mostly either IIR or FIR and in either case, you
can manage the latency to be zero.

All electronics have some latency.

Post by Les Cargill
The big thing, the advantage here is the quality of some plugins that
are available. Having come from a recording environment, those
are a pretty powerful tool.

Post by Rupert
Also, the whole setup sounds pretty cumbersome (by your own admission
in the original post) which is something you don't want for live
sound.

Somewhat. The display problem is the main one. The stuff you could
rackmount isn't that large. sitting behind a monitor is far from ideal.

Post by Rupert
Even the best digital desks have annoying traits in terms of
navigation and routing compared to their analog counterparts.

Agreed.

Post by Rupert
Adding
more complexity to the operation in a live sound environment is not
ideal. Do it right.

Lot to be said for that.

Post by Rupert
Spend some money.

Only if I am making some.

Post by Rupert
Make your life easier as well
as the life of your client and get a digital live sound desk. You're
exactly the customer the Behringer X32 was made for. It's cheap and
chock full of shit.

For what a digital desk goes for, I'd rather have something like
an A&H ZED-R16 analog desk w/ digital capability. It's a mere 28" wide.

Post by Rupert
By all accounts it sounds good and support is
decent.

This is what I hear as well.

Post by Rupert
If it's too large for you, you can get one of the smaller
surface versions.

If you're a set it and leave it bar band, you should look into (and as a
professional soundman, I can't believe I'm recommending this) Behringer
digital boards. Here is one for about $1000 that can be operated with an
iPad: http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/iX16.aspx You don't need any
extra hardware or software. It can do 6 monitor mixes as well as left &
right. You don't need an iPad to run it, but you can you can use a PC or
iPad to run it remotely through Ethernet, LAN, Wi-Fi and USB. You can
stand in the middle of the room with your iPad or laptop & get your mix
together.

I've worked with a number of mid-level bands who use Behringer digital
boards for in-ear monitors. Very little needs to be adjusted from night
to night. I've had to use Behringer digitals for live sound a few times.
They are not easy to navigate unless one uses them frequently. Most
other digitals are easier to navigate if you have experience on any pro
digital boards. But with a Wi-Fi connection, there are likely more
options available on a computer than a Behringer console. Software is
cheaper to manufacture than hardware.

Behringer claims to use Midas preamps & Lexicon simulated FX. You can
save scenes, which means you can recall different programs for
individual songs. If you hire a soundman, you can keep the mixing board
onstage & have your soundman mix anywhere in a small or medium size room
with an iPad ... no need for a snake or any other long cables.

Something to think about,
Denny

[Les Cargill]

Post by Les Cargill
<snip>

Post by Rupert
10 ms is a lot of latency,

There, I am pleasantly surprised. I expected it to be a lot worse
sounding than it is. Ten feet is one end of a small bedroom to
the other. I have guitar cables longer than that :)

Ten feet/ms is quite a bit of temporal offset. A note at 100Hz has
roughly a 10' wavelength. At 50Hz, a 10ms latency would cancel out the
low notes of your bass guitar (low E is about 40Hz), if you set the
cabinets side-by-side.

Yep. Headphones are a risky for evaluting this. But sitting in the
same room with this thing an an X/Y pair on headphones, I don't hear the
latency. IMO, it's inside the Haas limit.

You can't trust headphones for temporal and for spatial stuff in
general.

As you say, there would be lots to evaluate in the real setting.

Also also - a lot of bass players who need big SR support
love being able to bring a small amp mainly for their own
monitor, so that could work out well - and it gets
rid of a big source of stage wash.

Post by Les Cargill
Not that I have seen. Dynamics processors should be zero latency;
reverbs are all about delay so it doesn't matter; EQ might be a mix,
but should be mostly either IIR or FIR and in either case, you
can manage the latency to be zero.

All electronics have some latency.

Absolutely. I simply mean the plugin writers could make them minimal.
Will they? Don't know. You can pick the ones that don't add
measurable latency.

Reaper comes with a large stock of plugins itself.

Post by Les Cargill
The big thing, the advantage here is the quality of some plugins that
are available. Having come from a recording environment, those
are a pretty powerful tool.

Post by Rupert
Also, the whole setup sounds pretty cumbersome (by your own admission
in the original post) which is something you don't want for live
sound.

Somewhat. The display problem is the main one. The stuff you could
rackmount isn't that large. sitting behind a monitor is far from ideal.

Post by Rupert
Even the best digital desks have annoying traits in terms of
navigation and routing compared to their analog counterparts.

Agreed.

Post by Rupert
Adding
more complexity to the operation in a live sound environment is not
ideal. Do it right.

Lot to be said for that.

Post by Rupert
Spend some money.

Only if I am making some.

Post by Rupert
Make your life easier as well
as the life of your client and get a digital live sound desk. You're
exactly the customer the Behringer X32 was made for. It's cheap and
chock full of shit.

For what a digital desk goes for, I'd rather have something like
an A&H ZED-R16 analog desk w/ digital capability. It's a mere 28" wide.

Post by Rupert
By all accounts it sounds good and support is
decent.

This is what I hear as well.

Post by Rupert
If it's too large for you, you can get one of the smaller
surface versions.

If you're a set it and leave it bar band,

The few times I've run sound without being also
a performer, I was also pretty "set it and forget it."

Unless you're chasing guitar leads or actually an
integrated part of a band, IMO, that's a really good
way to do it. I figure an analog board is
probably better if you're very active on the faders.

you should look into (and as a
professional soundman, I can't believe I'm recommending this) Behringer
digital boards.

I can absolutely beleive you're saying this - they're nice
units from all acocunts. This stuff has matured a lot. I get
the feeling that the church market loves them.

Here is one for about $1000 that can be operated with an
iPad: http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/iX16.aspx You don't need any
extra hardware or software. It can do 6 monitor mixes as well as left &
right. You don't need an iPad to run it, but you can you can use a PC or
iPad to run it remotely through Ethernet, LAN, Wi-Fi and USB. You can
stand in the middle of the room with your iPad or laptop & get your mix
together.

Which is a great thing.

I've worked with a number of mid-level bands who use Behringer digital
boards for in-ear monitors. Very little needs to be adjusted from night
to night. I've had to use Behringer digitals for live sound a few times.
They are not easy to navigate unless one uses them frequently.

This is the main reason I'd like to avoid them. I have an old Fostex
VF-16 I've used for live sound ( with a Behringer ADA8000 ) before. The
integrated units all die eventually, so you've lost that
(considerable) investment. Reaper, and an outboard audio
interface could theoretically live forever.

Most
other digitals are easier to navigate if you have experience on any pro
digital boards. But with a Wi-Fi connection, there are likely more
options available on a computer than a Behringer console. Software is
cheaper to manufacture than hardware.

Bingo. Although it may or may not be cheaper overall. NRE can be
considerable.

Behringer claims to use Midas preamps & Lexicon simulated FX.

That probably means they took impulse responses from Lexicon 'verbs and
cloned them.

You can
save scenes, which means you can recall different programs for
individual songs. If you hire a soundman, you can keep the mixing board
onstage & have your soundman mix anywhere in a small or medium size room
with an iPad ... no need for a snake or any other long cables.

Yessir. That's huge. Also, Focusrite is finally embacing Ethernet.
I doubt that means WiFi for actual audio transport ( although in a nice
environment or with tight enough antennas 802.11n is pretty good)

Something to think about,
Denny

Thanks, Denny. It's a brave new world out there.

--
Les Cargill

[Rupert]

On Thursday, September 26, 2013 10:21:55 PM UTC-7, Denny Strauser wrote:
<snip>

All electronics have some latency.

No. Analog gear does not.

<snip>

If you're a set it and leave it bar band, you should look into (and as a
professional soundman, I can't believe I'm recommending this) Behringer
digital boards. Here is one for about $1000 that can be operated with an
iPad: http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/iX16.aspx You don't need any
extra hardware or software. It can do 6 monitor mixes as well as left &
right. You don't need an iPad to run it, but you can you can use a PC or
iPad to run it remotely through Ethernet, LAN, Wi-Fi and USB. You can
stand in the middle of the room with your iPad or laptop & get your mix
together.

Only problem is the iX16 has yet to ship. Still vaporware.

I've worked with a number of mid-level bands who use Behringer digital
boards for in-ear monitors. Very little needs to be adjusted from night
to night. I've had to use Behringer digitals for live sound a few times.
They are not easy to navigate unless one uses them frequently. Most
other digitals are easier to navigate if you have experience on any pro
digital boards. But with a Wi-Fi connection, there are likely more
options available on a computer than a Behringer console. Software is
cheaper to manufacture than hardware.
Behringer claims to use Midas preamps & Lexicon simulated FX. You can
save scenes, which means you can recall different programs for
individual songs. If you hire a soundman, you can keep the mixing board
onstage & have your soundman mix anywhere in a small or medium size room
with an iPad ... no need for a snake or any other long cables.
Something to think about,
Denny

I don't see any reason to doubt their "claim" about the preamps since the Midas team was directly involved with the design of the desk. That said, people give way too much weight to mic preamps anyway relative to the rest of the desk design.

Rupert

[Denny Strauser]

Post by Les Cargill
<snip>

All electronics have some latency.

No. Analog gear does not.

That is not true. Analog (and digital) EQ's introduce phase cancellation
if not set flat. What is phase cancellation but a time alignment
(latency) problem? I've also noticed that the A&H GL-3300 console I use
at my regular club gig introduces some phase problem if a channel is
double assigned to Main L&R AND a Stereo Sub Group. I haven't measured
it, but I can hear it with my headphones. The GL-3300 is a decent
mid-priced console.

And to address phase problems with a 10ms latency ... It is likely more
problematic when recording than doing live sound. Live sound has all
kinds of phase problems that can never be corrected in real world
situations. There are always problems with mics picking up sound of
sound sources from all over the stage. There are problems with the
different distances between stage amps & the sound system in relation to
the listener, and this is dependent on where the listener is seated, as
well as the frequency being amplified. I will often flip the polarity of
the bass guitar channel to hear which sounds best at FOH. These problems
can seldom be corrected, only minimized.

- Denny

[Peter Larsen]

Post by Denny Strauser
And to address phase problems with a 10ms latency ... It is likely
more problematic when recording than doing live sound.

A 10 ms delay of a PA positioned at stage front appears to me to be an
advantage, at a guess it should be in time with the backline. Sounded right
when I physically moved one for a recorded event.

Post by Denny Strauser
Live sound has
all kinds of phase problems that can never be corrected in real world
situations. There are always problems with mics picking up sound of
sound sources from all over the stage. There are problems with the
different distances between stage amps & the sound system in relation
to the listener, and this is dependent on where the listener is
seated, as well as the frequency being amplified. I will often flip
the polarity of the bass guitar channel to hear which sounds best at
FOH. These problems can seldom be corrected, only minimized.

See, you need to time-align the main with the backline. And perhaps to issue
20 watts instead of 2000 watts to the bass guitar operator. Should save you
some intermodulation in air problems. It was a real revelation to listen to
the sound of the drummers cymbals after it had passed through the air in
front of the bass guitar stack way many years ago, and I do not think that
stage levels generally have gone more quiet since.

Post by Denny Strauser
- Denny

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Denny Strauser]

Post by Peter Larsen

Post by Denny Strauser
And to address phase problems with a 10ms latency ... It is likely
more problematic when recording than doing live sound.

A 10 ms delay of a PA positioned at stage front appears to me to be an
advantage, at a guess it should be in time with the backline. Sounded right
when I physically moved one for a recorded event.

This is true in a small club. In larger venues, a longer delay is likely
more beneficial.

Post by Peter Larsen

Post by Denny Strauser
Live sound has
all kinds of phase problems that can never be corrected in real world
situations. There are always problems with mics picking up sound of
sound sources from all over the stage. There are problems with the
different distances between stage amps & the sound system in relation
to the listener, and this is dependent on where the listener is
seated, as well as the frequency being amplified. I will often flip
the polarity of the bass guitar channel to hear which sounds best at
FOH. These problems can seldom be corrected, only minimized.

See, you need to time-align the main with the backline. And perhaps to issue
20 watts instead of 2000 watts to the bass guitar operator. Should save you
some intermodulation in air problems. It was a real revelation to listen to
the sound of the drummers cymbals after it had passed through the air in
front of the bass guitar stack way many years ago, and I do not think that
stage levels generally have gone more quiet since.

With decent digital boards, you can actually delay individual channels
to time align the backline with FOH speakers. I'm not sure about
Behringer boards.

Stage volumes seem to me to have increased over the years. Back in the
late 1960's, when I started playing in bands, my parents told me; "It's
too loud & it all sounds the same." I never thought I'd grow up to think
like that ... but life is full of irony. :-)

- Denny

[Les Cargill]

Post by Denny Strauser

Post by Les Cargill
<snip>

All electronics have some latency.

No. Analog gear does not.

That is not true. Analog (and digital) EQ's introduce phase cancellation
if not set flat. What is phase cancellation but a time alignment
(latency) problem? I've also noticed that the A&H GL-3300 console I use
at my regular club gig introduces some phase problem if a channel is
double assigned to Main L&R AND a Stereo Sub Group. I haven't measured
it, but I can hear it with my headphones. The GL-3300 is a decent
mid-priced console.
And to address phase problems with a 10ms latency ... It is likely more
problematic when recording than doing live sound.

My main use *is* recording, and I don't perceive any problem. It's in
headphones, and for what ever reason, it's completely masked.

Post by Denny Strauser
Live sound has all
kinds of phase problems that can never be corrected in real world
situations. There are always problems with mics picking up sound of
sound sources from all over the stage. There are problems with the
different distances between stage amps & the sound system in relation to
the listener, and this is dependent on where the listener is seated, as
well as the frequency being amplified. I will often flip the polarity of
the bass guitar channel to hear which sounds best at FOH. These problems
can seldom be corrected, only minimized.

+1

Post by Denny Strauser
- Denny

--
Les Cargill

[Denny Strauser]

Post by Les Cargill

Post by Denny Strauser

Post by Les Cargill
<snip>

All electronics have some latency.

No. Analog gear does not.

That is not true. Analog (and digital) EQ's introduce phase cancellation
if not set flat. What is phase cancellation but a time alignment
(latency) problem? I've also noticed that the A&H GL-3300 console I use
at my regular club gig introduces some phase problem if a channel is
double assigned to Main L&R AND a Stereo Sub Group. I haven't measured
it, but I can hear it with my headphones. The GL-3300 is a decent
mid-priced console.
And to address phase problems with a 10ms latency ... It is likely more
problematic when recording than doing live sound.

My main use *is* recording, and I don't perceive any problem. It's in
headphones, and for what ever reason, it's completely masked.

I don't know how experienced you are, but phase problems are difficult
to hear for most people. I'm not claiming any supernatural abilities,
but I am anal about doing my job most of the time. And little things
matter much to me. I've worked shows that sound was provided by a
"professional" sound company.

I got in an argument with a sound company owner over this issue. Before
soundcheck, I actually watched this guy phase-check all the monitor
drivers. As he mixed the opening act, I walked around the room, and
back-and-forth in front of the main speaker array. I kept telling him
that he had a speaker wired out of phase. I couldn't tell him exactly
which speaker was out of phase. He was adamant that I was wrong,
explaining to me how anal he was about polarity ... "You saw me phase
check the monitors!" I was as diplomatic as I could be, telling him; "I
might be wrong. Phase problems are hard to detect, but my ears tell me
that something is out of phase." I could only tell him it was either a
horn or mid-range diver. After the show was over, he phase-checked the
array that I thought was suspect. One horn was out-of-phase.

It is not unusual to be able to detect phase problems with headphones,
but not hear it through speakers. Once sound is reproduced by speakers,
it reflects off everything in the listening environment. That causes all
kinds of phase interference, which can easily mask what one might hear
in headphones.

Post by Les Cargill

Post by Denny Strauser
Live sound has all
kinds of phase problems that can never be corrected in real world
situations. There are always problems with mics picking up sound of
sound sources from all over the stage. There are problems with the
different distances between stage amps & the sound system in relation to
the listener, and this is dependent on where the listener is seated, as
well as the frequency being amplified. I will often flip the polarity of
the bass guitar channel to hear which sounds best at FOH. These problems
can seldom be corrected, only minimized.

+1

- Denny

[Phil Allison]

"Denny Strauser"

It is not unusual to be able to detect phase problems with headphones, but
not hear it through speakers. Once sound is reproduced by speakers, it
reflects off everything in the listening environment. That causes all
kinds of phase interference, which can easily mask what one might hear in
headphones.

** Very true.

But if no user nor the audience objects - what does it matter ?

On one of the few sound gig I ever did, I was playing with the PFL buttons
on a H-H 12 channel desk (this is circa 1979).
Listening to the mic channel with the female bass player's amp, it was clear
she was both out of time and out of tune - but it seemed the audience was
blithely unaware and several told me how great she was ...

A 3 piece band came on next and the bass guitar was shaking the floor with
deep, near sine wave tones. The promoter soon comes up to the desk and
instructs me to turn the bass down - and I then had the dickens of a
time convincing him the guy's amp was not even being miced !!!

Next thing, a guy from the audience comes up and enthuses to me about the
"great" bass sound.

At least with fixing broken amps, you only have to please one person at a
time !!!

FYI:

It was an alcohol free gig, held in a small cinema in the CBD of Sydney one
Saturday arvo.



... Phil

[Denny Strauser]

Post by Phil Allison
"Denny Strauser"

It is not unusual to be able to detect phase problems with headphones, but
not hear it through speakers. Once sound is reproduced by speakers, it
reflects off everything in the listening environment. That causes all
kinds of phase interference, which can easily mask what one might hear in
headphones.

** Very true.
But if no user nor the audience objects - what does it matter ?

That's like saying; "If a tree falls in the forest & no one hears it,
did it make a noise?" It matters to me because I am my own worst critic.
I OBJECT! I've worked so many shows that the band totally sucked, the
audience was oblivious, and I knew that there was nothing that I could
do to make it sound good. But the band & the audience told me it sounded
AWESOME! I wanted to puke on them.

Post by Phil Allison
On one of the few sound gig I ever did, I was playing with the PFL buttons
on a H-H 12 channel desk (this is circa 1979).
Listening to the mic channel with the female bass player's amp, it was clear
she was both out of time and out of tune - but it seemed the audience was
blithely unaware and several told me how great she was ...
A 3 piece band came on next and the bass guitar was shaking the floor with
deep, near sine wave tones. The promoter soon comes up to the desk and
instructs me to turn the bass down - and I then had the dickens of a
time convincing him the guy's amp was not even being miced !!!

I have a Phonic PAA-2 that I use on almost every show I work... It has
an SPL meter, a realtime analyzer & a phase checker. In the last month
or three, I had a bass player (who I had turned off in the mix) who hit
124db SPL 100-160Hz at the FOH position. I could feel the hairs on my
arm vibrate (and I don't have hairy arms). When I told him this, he was
PROUD!

Post by Phil Allison
Next thing, a guy from the audience comes up and enthuses to me about the
"great" bass sound.

I would ask that guy to share whatever it is that he was smoking. I
wouldn't smoke it at work. But I might give it a try on a day off. :-)

- Denny

[Les Cargill]

Post by Denny Strauser

Post by Les Cargill

Post by Denny Strauser

Post by Les Cargill
<snip>

All electronics have some latency.

No. Analog gear does not.

That is not true. Analog (and digital) EQ's introduce phase cancellation
if not set flat. What is phase cancellation but a time alignment
(latency) problem? I've also noticed that the A&H GL-3300 console I use
at my regular club gig introduces some phase problem if a channel is
double assigned to Main L&R AND a Stereo Sub Group. I haven't measured
it, but I can hear it with my headphones. The GL-3300 is a decent
mid-priced console.
And to address phase problems with a 10ms latency ... It is likely more
problematic when recording than doing live sound.

My main use *is* recording, and I don't perceive any problem. It's in
headphones, and for what ever reason, it's completely masked.

I don't know how experienced you are,

Nobody ever knows that sort of thing :) I've been around, but sound has
never actually been what I paid taxes from.

Post by Denny Strauser
but phase problems are difficult
to hear for most people.

I'm reasonably proficient at hearing them. I've gone to people's homes
who had a stereo wired with one side out of phase, and brought it
to their attention. Obviously, that's the worst case and the
easiest to detect.

Comb filters are comb filter-ey.

Post by Denny Strauser
I'm not claiming any supernatural abilities,
but I am anal about doing my job most of the time. And little things
matter much to me. I've worked shows that sound was provided by a
"professional" sound company.

Theyre still pros, even if they're not perfect. Not everyody wants to
join the circus :)

Post by Denny Strauser
I got in an argument with a sound company owner over this issue. Before
soundcheck, I actually watched this guy phase-check all the monitor
drivers. As he mixed the opening act, I walked around the room, and
back-and-forth in front of the main speaker array. I kept telling him
that he had a speaker wired out of phase. I couldn't tell him exactly
which speaker was out of phase.

I know exactly what that sounds like. But, as you say - it's
very position-dependent. I've spent *some* amount of time
developing techniques to slide, say, a peizo signal from an acoustic
guitar in time to align it with a mic pair on the same guitar.

That's not *exactly* what you're talking about, though.

Post by Denny Strauser
He was adamant that I was wrong,
explaining to me how anal he was about polarity ... "You saw me phase
check the monitors!"

Emphasis "monitors"... not the FOH stacks... unless he was checking
one against the other... not sure how that would work, given
how they are pointed...

Post by Denny Strauser
I was as diplomatic as I could be, telling him; "I
might be wrong. Phase problems are hard to detect, but my ears tell me
that something is out of phase." I could only tell him it was either a
horn or mid-range diver. After the show was over, he phase-checked the
array that I thought was suspect. One horn was out-of-phase.

Giggity! Although being able to audit the cabling seems a more
productive way to prevent that sort of thing. Still, mistakes
get made.

Post by Denny Strauser
It is not unusual to be able to detect phase problems with headphones,
but not hear it through speakers.

That's kind of what I mean here. I *can't* tell thru headphones,
open-ear ones which admit quite a bit of room tone.

Post by Denny Strauser
Once sound is reproduced by speakers,
it reflects off everything in the listening environment. That causes all
kinds of phase interference, which can easily mask what one might hear
in headphones.

... which is why it seemed appropriate to post the thread-starter at
all. Bottom line: it's not that clear what the risk profile is, so
unless you know more about it in actual combat, it's ... riskier.

Gotta tell ya, though - having that much EQ firepower appeals to
some sort of primal greed instinct. It's a lousy interface, but
if there's a situaiton in which you can accrue good patterns
of EQ use and store them, it seems possibly worth it.

I tried EQing a kik with a Behringer (analog cheapo) this weekend.
Ugh.

But there is probably no substitute for a good console. All you
need is cash...

Post by Denny Strauser

Post by Les Cargill

Post by Denny Strauser
Live sound has all
kinds of phase problems that can never be corrected in real world
situations. There are always problems with mics picking up sound of
sound sources from all over the stage. There are problems with the
different distances between stage amps & the sound system in relation to
the listener, and this is dependent on where the listener is seated, as
well as the frequency being amplified. I will often flip the polarity of
the bass guitar channel to hear which sounds best at FOH. These problems
can seldom be corrected, only minimized.

+1

- Denny

--
Les Cargill

[geoff]

Post by Rupert
I'm not sure why you posted since it sounds like you've made up your
mind regardless of any input. 10 ms is a lot of latency,

Jeepers, how has the world been managing to do digital recording
successfully for the last 20 years ?!!

geoff

[cameronproaudio]

Post by geoff

Post by Rupert
I'm not sure why you posted since it sounds like you've made up your
mind regardless of any input. 10 ms is a lot of latency,

Jeepers, how has the world been managing to do digital recording
successfully for the last 20 years ?!!
geoff

I can't speak to recording, but I know that even a few ms of latency can throw off or simply bother some singers that use IEMs due to the comb filtering from the delay of the IEMs vs. their sinuses when using digital monitor desks. Seems like 10 milliseconds would make matters worse for those particular folks. And with wedges, 10ms on top of the physical distance of of the monitors to the vocalists might be a bit noticeable vs. less time. Maybe it matters, maybe not. Having a wedge 7 feet from your ears vs. 17 feet is going to sound different.

[Denny Strauser]

Post by cameronproaudio

Post by geoff

Post by Rupert
I'm not sure why you posted since it sounds like you've made up your
mind regardless of any input. 10 ms is a lot of latency,

Jeepers, how has the world been managing to do digital recording
successfully for the last 20 years ?!!

I can't speak to recording, but I know that even a few ms of latency can throw off or simply bother some singers that use IEMs due to the comb filtering from the delay of the IEMs vs. their sinuses when using digital monitor desks. Seems like 10 milliseconds would make matters worse for those particular folks. And with wedges, 10ms on top of the physical distance of of the monitors to the vocalists might be a bit noticeable vs. less time. Maybe it matters, maybe not. Having a wedge 7 feet from your ears vs. 17 feet is going to sound different.

Actually, it is sometimes beneficial to have a delay (as much as 100ms)
in vocal monitors. With no delay, it is difficult to separate what a
vocalist hears & feels internally, and the monitors. A delay will make
the monitor stand out from the voice itself.

- Denny

[k***@gmail.com]

Post by Denny Strauser

Post by cameronproaudio

Post by geoff

Post by Rupert
I'm not sure why you posted since it sounds like you've made up your
mind regardless of any input. 10 ms is a lot of latency,

Jeepers, how has the world been managing to do digital recording
successfully for the last 20 years ?!!

I can't speak to recording, but I know that even a few ms of latency can throw off or simply bother some singers that use IEMs due to the comb filtering from the delay of the IEMs vs. their sinuses when using digital monitor desks. Seems like 10 milliseconds would make matters worse for those particular folks. And with wedges, 10ms on top of the physical distance of of the monitors to the vocalists might be a bit noticeable vs. less time. Maybe it matters, maybe not. Having a wedge 7 feet from your ears vs. 17 feet is going to sound different.

Actually, it is sometimes beneficial to have a delay (as much as 100ms)
in vocal monitors. With no delay, it is difficult to separate what a
vocalist hears & feels internally, and the monitors. A delay will make
the monitor stand out from the voice itself.
- Denny

What utter bullshit! No monitor engineer in their right mind would ever do such a thing unless being fired is something they enjoy. 100ms is the equivalent of 113'. So you're telling me that a singer would prefer to have their monitor sound like it's 120' away from them?? You are INSANE! I'll remember this little posting of yours so if you ever set foot on a stage I'm managing, you'll be escorted off the premises by security toot sweet before you can do any real damage.

- K

[Les Cargill]

On Thursday, October 10, 2013 8:56:47 PM UTC-7, Denny Strauser

Post by Denny Strauser

Post by cameronproaudio

Post by geoff

Post by Rupert
I'm not sure why you posted since it sounds like you've made up your
mind regardless of any input. 10 ms is a lot of latency,

Jeepers, how has the world been managing to do digital
recording
successfully for the last 20 years ?!!

I can't speak to recording, but I know that even a few ms of
latency can throw off or simply bother some singers that use IEMs
due to the comb filtering from the delay of the IEMs vs. their
sinuses when using digital monitor desks. Seems like 10
milliseconds would make matters worse for those particular folks.
And with wedges, 10ms on top of the physical distance of of the
monitors to the vocalists might be a bit noticeable vs. less
time. Maybe it matters, maybe not. Having a wedge 7 feet from
your ears vs. 17 feet is going to sound different.

Actually, it is sometimes beneficial to have a delay (as much as 100ms)
in vocal monitors. With no delay, it is difficult to separate what a
vocalist hears & feels internally, and the monitors. A delay will make
the monitor stand out from the voice itself.
- Denny

What utter bullshit! No monitor engineer in their right mind would
ever do such a thing unless being fired is something they enjoy.
100ms is the equivalent of 113'. So you're telling me that a singer
would prefer to have their monitor sound like it's 120' away from
them?? You are INSANE! I'll remember this little posting of yours so
if you ever set foot on a stage I'm managing, you'll be escorted off
the premises by security toot sweet before you can do any real
damage.
- K

Oops - 10 is not 100.

--
Les Cargill

[Denny Strauser]

<snip>

Post by Denny Strauser
Actually, it is sometimes beneficial to have a delay (as much as 100ms)
in vocal monitors. With no delay, it is difficult to separate what a
vocalist hears & feels internally, and the monitors. A delay will make
the monitor stand out from the voice itself.

What utter bullshit!<snip>

That is your opinion. I'm quite sure you have half-a-clue, just as I
have half-a-clue. We may disagree, but we both have a solid background
in audio. I could call your response "utter bullshit!" ... but I don't
need to.

And as far as ever stepping onto your stage, I hope I never do. I'd
rather never work with a ... well, a ... well, ... on your stage.

On Thursday night, I received an interesting compliment from the
vocalist of an indie touring band. She complimented me on not "talking
down to the band" and being extremely efficient.

I guess if I told the band; "utter bullshit!" ....
... They'd have a flashback to your stage? :-)

- Denny

[Les Cargill]

Post by cameronproaudio

Post by geoff

Post by Rupert
I'm not sure why you posted since it sounds like you've made up your
mind regardless of any input. 10 ms is a lot of latency,

Jeepers, how has the world been managing to do digital recording
successfully for the last 20 years ?!!
geoff

I can't speak to recording, but I know that even a few ms of latency
can throw off or simply bother some singers that use IEMs due to the
comb filtering from the delay of the IEMs vs. their sinuses when
using digital monitor desks.

So the experiment I performed was with open-ear headphones. In that
case - to me - the 10ms was not perceptible. It would be of the same
order of magnitude as a wedge 10 ft away.

I demonstrated this to a couple of folks - one said "It sounds like
I have a huge microphone inside my head." the sound
was not localized *outside* their head.

but we're rolling the bones on perception at that point.

Post by cameronproaudio
Seems like 10 milliseconds would make
matters worse for those particular folks. And with wedges, 10ms on
top of the physical distance of of the monitors to the vocalists
might be a bit noticeable vs. less time.

Might be.

Post by cameronproaudio
Maybe it matters, maybe not.
Having a wedge 7 feet from your ears vs. 17 feet is going to sound
different.

I would *guess* that diffusion artifacts/"room" would make more
difference than delay. But that is a guess. The Haas Limit is
somewhere around 20 msec, give or take. in telephony, delay begins
to matter only with delays quite a bit larger - say 50 msec.

If speed of sound plus "computer" delay adds up to 20 msec, it might be
more of a problem.

Also, cellphones are, IMO, training people to tolerate larger and larger
delays as codecs add more delay. I feel compelled to say "over" on my
cellphone when I am done talking.

It would be interesting to try for real.

--
Les Cargill

[Les Cargill]

Post by geoff

Post by Rupert
I'm not sure why you posted since it sounds like you've made up your
mind regardless of any input. 10 ms is a lot of latency,

Jeepers, how has the world been managing to do digital recording
successfully for the last 20 years ?!!
geoff

Seriously? Until recently, the standard was (SFAIK) "Use an analog (or
digital) desk as your cue mixer."

IMO, the quesiton is whether or not a DAW can be used as a digital
desk. It's getting closer. I'd used a Fostex VF16 - basically a crude
digital desk before.

--
Les Cargill

[Mike Scott]

Post by Les Cargill
I recently bought a Focusrite Scarlett 18i20. Nice box. Offers

Possibly not the right group to ask in - but does anyone know for sure
if the focusright boxes have full/limited/no linux support now? Any near
equivalents that are usable?

TIA.

[geoff]

Post by Mike Scott

Post by Les Cargill
I recently bought a Focusrite Scarlett 18i20. Nice box. Offers

Possibly not the right group to ask in - but does anyone know for sure
if the focusright boxes have full/limited/no linux support now? Any near
equivalents that are usable?
TIA.

Try http://bit.ly/OMS83y

You may get some more replies here too if you are lucky, which is what
you are looking for I guess ;-).

geoff

[Mike Scott]

Post by geoff

Post by Mike Scott

Post by Les Cargill
I recently bought a Focusrite Scarlett 18i20. Nice box. Offers

Possibly not the right group to ask in - but does anyone know for sure
if the focusright boxes have full/limited/no linux support now? Any near
equivalents that are usable?
TIA.

Try http://bit.ly/OMS83y

:-|

Post by geoff
You may get some more replies here too if you are lucky, which is what
you are looking for I guess ;-).

Indeed. Information on the net at large is (a) sparse, and (b) largely
out-of-date. One can but try one's luck and hope for a 'pro' response
within a 'pro' group.

[Steve M]

Post by Mike Scott

Post by geoff
You may get some more replies here too if you are lucky, which is what
you are looking for I guess ;-).

Indeed. Information on the net at large is (a) sparse, and (b) largely
out-of-date. One can but try one's luck and hope for a 'pro' response
within a 'pro' group.

I suggest you try a group devoted to recording. This is a live sound group
and while some may dabble in recording it is not the main focus of
discussion.
Plus, there seems to be very little traffic here, lately.
I think you may find a forum dedicated to computer based recording with a
just
a quick search. Good luck.

--
Steve M