Discussion:
Speaker Failure Article
(too old to reply)
Phil Allison
2012-06-02 02:56:52 UTC
Permalink
** Hi all,

the promised article on loudspeaker failures is finally up, including 5 nice
pics taken by me.

http://sound.westhost.com/articles/speaker-failure.html

The article is rather tightly written, so you need to read it a bit at a
time and cogitate.

Also take a careful look at the links provided at the end of the article
too.

And before anyone asks, the 40mm voice coil and magnet gap are from a 10
inch woofer used in an AR2a.


.... Phil
Denny Strauser
2012-06-02 09:36:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Allison
** Hi all,
the promised article on loudspeaker failures is finally up, including 5 nice
pics taken by me.
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/speaker-failure.html
The article is rather tightly written, so you need to read it a bit at a
time and cogitate.
Also take a careful look at the links provided at the end of the article
too.
And before anyone asks, the 40mm voice coil and magnet gap are from a 10
inch woofer used in an AR2a.
Interesting & informative article.

I've had a few interesting speaker failures:

One was obviously caused by a failing 'tinsel' wire. I have had these
braided wires occasionally break off, and some I've been able to solder
back on. But in this specific situation, not all the braids broke off.
But the few that were left intact heated up enough to catch the cone on
fire. It was a JBL 15" speaker. And between the chemical fire
extinguisher powder & the smell of burnt rubber, we had to clear the
theatre & open all the doors to let the fumes & powder dissipate before
we re-entered the room. Thank goodness it was during soundcheck, and not
the show.

The other interesting speaker failure was during set-up for a Static X
show. Their LD had a 3-phase PD, but we only had a single-phase AC
source. Without my knowledge he decided to use a Cam-Lock-Tee to get
three 120V feeds from me (the PD had no 240V outs). When I wired him
into our AC panel, I only wired his Red & Black tails, and left the Blue
tail coiled up in the bottom of the breaker box. I had metered the tails
to insure that the tails were hooked uo correctly. But I didn't inspect
how those tails were hooked up to his PD after I gave him his tails. The
LD's intent was to Tee one of the hot legs into two inputs of the PD.
But he had a brain fart & Tee'd one of those hot legs to that Blue tail
I left coiled up in the bottom of the breaker box. When I flipped the
main breaker switch on, I heard a BIG BOOM come out of the sound system.
I then powered everything down & inspected all the wiring. I found the
brain-fart-Tee. & fixed it. But, because the Blue leg arced to
ground/neutral ... some of my power amps saw 240V input instead of the
expected 120V for a few milliseconds. It blew the voice coil completely
through a 15" paper cone of the drum monitor. I felt luck that it was
the only driver destroyed. That could have been a major disaster.

- Denny
Flint
2012-06-02 13:14:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Denny Strauser
Post by Phil Allison
** Hi all,
the promised article on loudspeaker failures is finally up,
including 5 nice
pics taken by me.
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/speaker-failure.html
The article is rather tightly written, so you need to read it a bit at a
time and cogitate.
Also take a careful look at the links provided at the end of the article
too.
And before anyone asks, the 40mm voice coil and magnet gap are from a 10
inch woofer used in an AR2a.
Interesting & informative article.
One was obviously caused by a failing 'tinsel' wire. I have had these
braided wires occasionally break off, and some I've been able to
solder back on. But in this specific situation, not all the braids
broke off. But the few that were left intact heated up enough to catch
the cone on fire. It was a JBL 15" speaker. And between the chemical
fire extinguisher powder & the smell of burnt rubber, we had to clear
the theatre & open all the doors to let the fumes & powder dissipate
before we re-entered the room. Thank goodness it was during
soundcheck, and not the show.
The other interesting speaker failure was during set-up for a Static X
show. Their LD had a 3-phase PD, but we only had a single-phase AC
source. Without my knowledge he decided to use a Cam-Lock-Tee to get
three 120V feeds from me (the PD had no 240V outs). When I wired him
into our AC panel, I only wired his Red & Black tails, and left the
Blue tail coiled up in the bottom of the breaker box. I had metered
the tails to insure that the tails were hooked uo correctly. But I
didn't inspect how those tails were hooked up to his PD after I gave
him his tails. The LD's intent was to Tee one of the hot legs into two
inputs of the PD. But he had a brain fart & Tee'd one of those hot
legs to that Blue tail I left coiled up in the bottom of the breaker
box. When I flipped the main breaker switch on, I heard a BIG BOOM
come out of the sound system. I then powered everything down &
inspected all the wiring. I found the brain-fart-Tee. & fixed it. But,
because the Blue leg arced to ground/neutral ... some of my power amps
saw 240V input instead of the expected 120V for a few milliseconds. It
blew the voice coil completely through a 15" paper cone of the drum
monitor. I felt luck that it was the only driver destroyed. That could
have been a major disaster.
- Denny
Yeah, I've experimented with voice coil "cannons" on a few occasions
myself... :)

I remember blowing out a JBL 2220 once, and my recone guy (John
Meuller) used to work for Clair Brothers, and Clair left him have his
former Dimension 5 customers bring their recone work to him at Clair's
original Manheim facility (when they were still in the indoor tennis
court building).

When I entered the lobby in order to drop it off with John, Clair
engineer Ron Borthwick was walking by and noticed my blown woofer.
After looking at it, he laughed and said he never saw a driver blown
like that! I laughed, and thought to myself "Riiiiiiiiiiight...."
I knew better as I bought many a blown 15" JBL basket from Roy and
Gene that I hand picked off of a mini >mountain< of blown 15" baskets
in their warehouse.

Like you, I had a similar experience once where I had a rack of Clair
modified Phase ("Flame") Linear 700Bs that got damaged when the squint
on a job tied the PD into a wild leg. I wasn't so lucky however, and
took out all 4 of my 2441 drivers, a couple of woofers, and the rack
of Flame Linears (the output transistors did produce a few neat little
blue flame 'jets' out the back of the rack), and one Clair Brothers
SAE 2600.
--
MFB
PeterD
2012-06-02 11:24:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Allison
** Hi all,
the promised article on loudspeaker failures is finally up, including 5 nice
pics taken by me.
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/speaker-failure.html
The article is rather tightly written, so you need to read it a bit at a
time and cogitate.
Also take a careful look at the links provided at the end of the article
too.
And before anyone asks, the 40mm voice coil and magnet gap are from a 10
inch woofer used in an AR2a.
.... Phil
Excellent article... Worth the read!
--
I'm never going to grow up.
Rupert
2012-06-02 21:40:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Allison
** Hi all,
the promised article on loudspeaker failures is finally up, including 5 nice
pics taken by me.
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/speaker-failure.html
The article is rather tightly written, so you need to read it a bit at a
time and cogitate.
Also take a careful look at the links provided at the end of the article
too.
And before anyone asks, the 40mm voice coil and magnet gap are from a 10
inch woofer used in an AR2a.
.... Phil
Nice work. By far the best comprehensive article on any of the standard pro audio info sites. One thing that seems to allow turn-key large scale system to use those mega sized power amps is that they're using processing that incorporates up to 3 types of limiting: rms, voltage, and clip. That way they can squeeze every last drop of output out the drivers without blowing them and also get the maximum possible peak output at the same time by pushing the mechanical limit a bit for short bursts with voltage in substantial excess of average. Of course I'm sure that in the process of figuring out what real world settings have to be used, they cook a bunch of drivers in the alpha & beta cycles before they release those presets to the real world. Nowadays it's not uncommon for companies like JBL & L'Acoustics to use one huge amp for all the bandpasses. But of course, you have to use their "greybox" setting and/or amps with their speakers. L'Acoustics won't even sell you a rig non-turn key and without authorized training on deployment.

Many of the nigh high end systems I mix on can be pushed well into the limiters for a good period of time without damage or audible distortion artifacts. So those turnkey system designers are doing their homework so that even abusive mix personal won't wreck the drivers. But I also find that with the incredible output the amps and speakers have these days, there's so much headroom with these bigger systems that you don't need to push them that hard anyway.

I suspect in the not-to-near future high end drivers will incorporate thermal and excursion sensors so that processors can dynamically limit based on actual conditions inside the drivers it wouldn't get any better than that. I'm sure some might balk at the added cost, but then again it could save a fortune in re-cones.

Rupert
geoff
2012-06-04 10:06:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Allison
** Hi all,
the promised article on loudspeaker failures is finally up, including
5 nice pics taken by me.
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/speaker-failure.html
The article is rather tightly written, so you need to read it a bit
at a time and cogitate.
Also take a careful look at the links provided at the end of the
article too.
And before anyone asks, the 40mm voice coil and magnet gap are from a
10 inch woofer used in an AR2a.
Thanks for that article. I take it Rod took out all the rude bits ?!!

geoff
Phil Allison
2012-06-04 10:52:12 UTC
Permalink
"geoff"
Post by geoff
Post by Phil Allison
** Hi all,
the promised article on loudspeaker failures is finally up, including
5 nice pics taken by me.
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/speaker-failure.html
The article is rather tightly written, so you need to read it a bit
at a time and cogitate.
Also take a careful look at the links provided at the end of the
article too.
And before anyone asks, the 40mm voice coil and magnet gap are from a
10 inch woofer used in an AR2a.
Thanks for that article. I take it Rod took out all the rude bits ?!!
** Truth is, Rod added a word that I was reluctant to use in such an
article.

The line:

" Pure genius or dishonest but cunning dodge ? "

Was in the original version supplied to him:

" Pure genius or cunning Yankee dodge ? "

My allusion to the invention of "anaesthesia" was invisible to Rod, I
suspect.



... Phil
Peter Larsen
2012-06-05 17:06:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Allison
** Hi all,
the promised article on loudspeaker failures is finally up, including
5 nice pics taken by me.
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/speaker-failure.html
Thank you!

Kind regards

Peter Larsen
Rupert
2012-06-05 19:36:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Allison
** Hi all,
the promised article on loudspeaker failures is finally up, including 5 nice
pics taken by me.
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/speaker-failure.html
The article is rather tightly written, so you need to read it a bit at a
time and cogitate.
Also take a careful look at the links provided at the end of the article
too.
And before anyone asks, the 40mm voice coil and magnet gap are from a 10
inch woofer used in an AR2a.
.... Phil
This probably a discussion for a different article but it's related: what occurs with HF drivers when passive crossovers are presented with clipped signals from the amplifier? There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding. I've read that much the harmonics from the clipping are sent to the HF driver which is why they're prone to baking. But then I've also read that the power from those harmonics is not great enough to cause damage. Anyone have any insight on that?
Arny Krueger
2012-06-06 11:59:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Allison
** Hi all,
the promised article on loudspeaker failures is finally up, including 5
nice pics taken by me.
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/speaker-failure.html
The article is rather tightly written, so you need to read it a bit at a
time and cogitate.
Also take a careful look at the links provided at the end of the article
too.
And before anyone asks, the 40mm voice coil and magnet gap are from a 10
inch woofer used in an AR2a.
Nicely done. I posted a link to your article on AVS.
Phil Allison
2012-06-06 12:22:21 UTC
Permalink
"Arny Krueger"
"Phil Allison"
Post by Phil Allison
** Hi all,
the promised article on loudspeaker failures is finally up, including 5
nice pics taken by me.
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/speaker-failure.html
The article is rather tightly written, so you need to read it a bit at a
time and cogitate.
Also take a careful look at the links provided at the end of the article
too.
And before anyone asks, the 40mm voice coil and magnet gap are from a 10
inch woofer used in an AR2a.
Nicely done. I posted a link to your article on AVS.
** Reality is, I figured this article was pretty damn controversial and
bound to get a fair bit of negative reaction.

But so far, all the feedback is 100% positive - on this NG and another.

Well blow me down ....



.... Phil
Arny Krueger
2012-06-06 12:29:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Allison
"Arny Krueger"
"Phil Allison"
Post by Phil Allison
** Hi all,
the promised article on loudspeaker failures is finally up, including 5
nice pics taken by me.
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/speaker-failure.html
The article is rather tightly written, so you need to read it a bit at a
time and cogitate.
Also take a careful look at the links provided at the end of the article
too.
And before anyone asks, the 40mm voice coil and magnet gap are from a 10
inch woofer used in an AR2a.
Nicely done. I posted a link to your article on AVS.
** Reality is, I figured this article was pretty damn controversial and
bound to get a fair bit of negative reaction.
But so far, all the feedback is 100% positive - on this NG and another.
Well blow me down ....
Phil, I especially liked your debunking of the "too small amplifier fries
speakers" myth. But the rest was very good as well.
Phil Allison
2012-06-06 12:58:42 UTC
Permalink
"Arny Krueger" >
"Phil Allison"
Post by Phil Allison
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by Phil Allison
** Hi all,
the promised article on loudspeaker failures is finally up, including 5
nice pics taken by me.
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/speaker-failure.html
The article is rather tightly written, so you need to read it a bit at
a time and cogitate.
Also take a careful look at the links provided at the end of the
article too.
And before anyone asks, the 40mm voice coil and magnet gap are from a
10 inch woofer used in an AR2a.
Nicely done. I posted a link to your article on AVS.
** Reality is, I figured this article was pretty damn controversial and
bound to get a fair bit of negative reaction.
But so far, all the feedback is 100% positive - on this NG and another.
Well blow me down ....
Phil, I especially liked your debunking of the "too small amplifier fries
speakers" myth. But the rest was very good as well.
** Here is the link to the AVS forum as posted by Arny.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1413903/new-article-debunking-some-speaker-amp-myths#post_22101910

Maybe my evil heresies will stir up a hornet's nest over there ...



... Phil
Phil Allison
2012-06-09 02:23:13 UTC
Permalink
Arny Krueger" <***@cocmast.net>

** Dear Arny,

Where did you get your FALSE information about my experience with audio
equipment ?

From reading posts by idiot trolls on usenet that included the word "
toaster " maybe ???

FYI:

at no time has " consumer audio" been any more than a very small fraction
of my repair work. Over 95% of the items that cross my bench are, both now
and in the past, within the categories of PA system electronics and
musician's stage equipment.

All my customers are involved in the world of "pro-audio".


... Phil
Denny Strauser
2012-06-09 03:11:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Allison
** Dear Arny,
Where did you get your FALSE information about my experience with audio
equipment ?
From reading posts by idiot trolls on usenet that included the word "
toaster " maybe ???
at no time has " consumer audio" been any more than a very small fraction
of my repair work. Over 95% of the items that cross my bench are, both now
and in the past, within the categories of PA system electronics and
musician's stage equipment.
All my customers are involved in the world of "pro-audio".
Unless I missed something in your reply - completely clipping Arny's
reply, he gave you a compliment. How might you feel insulted?

- Denny
Phil Allison
2012-06-09 03:13:51 UTC
Permalink
"Denny Strauser the Shithead "
Post by Denny Strauser
Unless I missed something in your reply - completely clipping Arny's
reply,
** See the heading? ?

Arnold knows what it is about.

Piss off.
Denny Strauser
2012-06-09 03:16:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Denny Strauser
Post by Phil Allison
** Dear Arny,
Where did you get your FALSE information about my experience with audio
equipment ?
From reading posts by idiot trolls on usenet that included the word "
toaster " maybe ???
at no time has " consumer audio" been any more than a very small fraction
of my repair work. Over 95% of the items that cross my bench are, both now
and in the past, within the categories of PA system electronics and
musician's stage equipment.
All my customers are involved in the world of "pro-audio".
Unless I missed something in your reply - completely clipping Arny's
reply, he gave you a compliment. How might you feel insulted?
- Denny
Maybe you read your own reply & assumed Arny made it. Then I might
understand how you might feel offended .... LOL

- Denny
Arny Krueger
2012-06-09 11:00:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Allison
** Dear Arny,
Where did you get your FALSE information about my experience with audio
equipment ?
Oh, about 10 years of reading your posts.

I've obviously made a serious mistake and humbly offer my apology.
Phil Allison
2012-06-09 13:08:21 UTC
Permalink
"Arny Krueger"
"Phil Allison"
Arny Krueger"
Post by Phil Allison
** Dear Arny,
Where did you get your FALSE information about my experience with audio
equipment ?
Oh, about 10 years of reading your posts.
I've obviously made a serious mistake and humbly offer my apology.
** Only possible if you read " aus.hi-fi " exclusively - that massively
troll ridden newsgroup I single headedly *put out of business* SEVERAL
YEARS AGO !!!!!!

For the terminally curious, the NGs I follow are:

" alt.audio.pro.live-sound "

" aus.electronics "

" aus.legal "

" rec.audio.tubes "

" sci.electronics basics"

" sci.electronics.design"

" sci.electronics.repair "

" uk.rec.audio "



.... Phil
Phil Allison
2012-06-10 06:01:34 UTC
Permalink
"Arny Krueger"
Post by Arny Krueger
I've obviously made a serious mistake and humbly offer my apology.
** You can make amends by posting this link on the AVS forum:

http://sound.westhost.com/tweeters.htm

The reason I made no mention of the "Clipping Harmonics Burn Tweeters Myth"
is that it was long ago covered by a separate article on the ESP site by Rod
himself.

He has just updated it with better graphics.


.... Phil
Denny Strauser
2012-06-07 04:58:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Allison
** Reality is, I figured this article was pretty damn controversial and
bound to get a fair bit of negative reaction.
But so far, all the feedback is 100% positive - on this NG and another.
Well blow me down ....
.... Phil
Phil, although most of us [long-timers] on this NG value your
intelligence, you can sometimes be abrasive. This link is a gem.

- Denny
Lord Valve
2012-06-10 03:17:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Allison
"Arny Krueger"
"Phil Allison"
Post by Phil Allison
** Hi all,
the promised article on loudspeaker failures is finally up, including 5
nice pics taken by me.
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/speaker-failure.html
The article is rather tightly written, so you need to read it a bit at a
time and cogitate.
Also take a careful look at the links provided at the end of the article
too.
And before anyone asks, the 40mm voice coil and magnet gap are from a 10
inch woofer used in an AR2a.
Nicely done. I posted a link to your article on AVS.
** Reality is, I figured this article was pretty damn controversial and
bound to get a fair bit of negative reaction.
But so far, all the feedback is 100% positive - on this NG and another.
Well blow me down ....
.... Phil
Well I, for one, think your article is a mountain of pure crap.

No, wait...I like it too. Damn.


Lord Valve
Autistic Criminal ASD-fucked Septic Fuckwit
Denny Strauser
2012-06-10 20:50:47 UTC
Permalink
On 6/9/2012 11:17 PM, Lord Valve wrote:
<snipped to save valuable bandwidth>
Post by Phil Allison
.... Phil
Well I, for one, think your article is a mountain of pure crap.
No, wait...I like it too. Damn.
Lord Valve
Autistic Criminal ASD-fucked Septic Fuckwit
Finally he has shared his knowledge without offending anyone in advance.
Miracles do happen. Maybe there IS a GOD ... or a conscience.

- Denny

Ron Capik
2012-06-09 16:16:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Allison
** Hi all,
the promised article on loudspeaker failures is finally up, including 5 nice
pics taken by me.
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/speaker-failure.html
The article is rather tightly written, so you need to read it a bit at a
time and cogitate.
Also take a careful look at the links provided at the end of the article
too.
And before anyone asks, the 40mm voice coil and magnet gap are from a 10
inch woofer used in an AR2a.
.... Phil
Nice article. Well presented.

One question:
How large a part does the vent play in cooling?

If significant then as the coil heats and the efficiency
goes down vent flow will also be reduced and heating
would be further accelerated.

You might want to add something about the significance
of vent cooling.
[ ...or maybe I missed it and need to reread the article.]


Thanks for posting the article!
==

Later...
Ron Capik
--
Phil Allison
2012-06-10 03:59:57 UTC
Permalink
"Ron Capik"
Post by Ron Capik
Post by Phil Allison
the promised article on loudspeaker failures is finally up, including 5 nice
pics taken by me.
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/speaker-failure.html
The article is rather tightly written, so you need to read it a bit at a
time and cogitate.
Also take a careful look at the links provided at the end of the article
too.
Nice article. Well presented.
How large a part does the vent play in cooling?
** Not much.
Post by Ron Capik
If significant then as the coil heats and the efficiency goes down ..
** The efficiency is very low anyhow, a few % of the amp power delivered
turns into sound - the rest goes into heating the VC and the suspension
components.

As a VC heats, the current drawn from the amp falls and the situation tends
to stabilise.
Post by Ron Capik
You might want to add something about the significance
of vent cooling.
** With most speakers, there is a sealed volume behind the magnetic gap so
very little air flow goes on. Hot air adjacent to the voice coil circulates
with cooler air and this serves to heat the magnet structure, along with
conduction and radiation of
heat from the voice coil.

The main reason for having a hollow pole piece is to relieve pressure on the
cone during large excursions, but it also allows moving air to cool the pole
piece too.

JBL designed a way to force cool air over at least part of the voice coil in
operation - provided the cone is moving significantly at low frequencies of
course. Their idea, called " Vented Gap Cooling " takes full advantage of
the AES 50Hz to 500Hz testing method to get about double the previous
published power ratings.

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/support/getfile.aspx?doctype=3&docid=297

See the final two paras on the first page.



.... Phil
Ron Capik
2012-06-10 14:43:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Allison
"Ron Capik"
Post by Ron Capik
Post by Phil Allison
the promised article on loudspeaker failures is finally up, including 5 nice
pics taken by me.
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/speaker-failure.html
The article is rather tightly written, so you need to read it a bit at a
time and cogitate.
Also take a careful look at the links provided at the end of the article
too.
Nice article. Well presented.
How large a part does the vent play in cooling?
** Not much.
Post by Ron Capik
If significant then as the coil heats and the efficiency goes down ..
** The efficiency is very low anyhow, a few % of the amp power delivered
turns into sound - the rest goes into heating the VC and the suspension
components.
As a VC heats, the current drawn from the amp falls and the situation tends
to stabilise.
Post by Ron Capik
You might want to add something about the significance
of vent cooling.
** With most speakers, there is a sealed volume behind the magnetic gap so
very little air flow goes on. Hot air adjacent to the voice coil circulates
with cooler air and this serves to heat the magnet structure, along with
conduction and radiation of
heat from the voice coil.
The main reason for having a hollow pole piece is to relieve pressure on the
cone during large excursions, but it also allows moving air to cool the pole
piece too.
JBL designed a way to force cool air over at least part of the voice coil in
operation - provided the cone is moving significantly at low frequencies of
course. Their idea, called " Vented Gap Cooling " takes full advantage of
the AES 50Hz to 500Hz testing method to get about double the previous
published power ratings.
http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/support/getfile.aspx?doctype=3&docid=297
See the final two paras on the first page.
.... Phil
Thanks, that answers my question.

I took a long look at your motor diagram [Fig#2] as
well as the cutaway link. I hadn't previously noticed
that the gap volume is (typically) only open on one
end, thus wouldn't benefit from the vent flow.

The JBL Tech note is interesting. I skimmed it and
saved a copy to read in detail later.

Thanks again.
==

Later...
Ron Capik
--
Loading...