Allen & Heath GL3300 vs. Soundcraft Series Two

[b***@hotmail.com]

OK - I appreciate all the info in my previous post concerning A&H vs
the Midas Venice. Now my vendor is throwing another console into the
mix - the Soundcraft Series Two. I've never worked with Soundcraft
consoles either, but looking at the features there are things I really
like - especially the 128 MIDI-controllable mute snapshots for
theatre. Anybody used one? How are the pre's, EQ section in
comparison to the GL3300? I know a guy could drive himself nuts
looking at all the different options out there - but I need to get
something going here but don't want to rush into anything, know what I
mean??? So any opinions on the Series Two would also be greatly
appreciated - thanks.

[md]

Personally I wouldn't compare a GL3300 to a Series Two. They may be close
in price but their two different animals. Now to compare apples to apples
look at the Series Two against the ML3000 by A&H.

Post by b***@hotmail.com
OK - I appreciate all the info in my previous post concerning A&H vs
the Midas Venice. Now my vendor is throwing another console into the
mix - the Soundcraft Series Two. I've never worked with Soundcraft
consoles either, but looking at the features there are things I really
like - especially the 128 MIDI-controllable mute snapshots for
theatre. Anybody used one? How are the pre's, EQ section in
comparison to the GL3300? I know a guy could drive himself nuts
looking at all the different options out there - but I need to get
something going here but don't want to rush into anything, know what I
mean??? So any opinions on the Series Two would also be greatly
appreciated - thanks.

[b***@hotmail.com]

I guess I'm not really trying to compare the two, but not having been
around Soundcraft just wanted to find out what league the Series Two
is in - and if you say apples to apples a ML3000 then I get the idea.
I can trade my GL2200 in on a GL3300 for around 3 grand extra - the
trade for a Series Two would set me back to around 4 grand. Midas
Verona is another story - 8 grand to boot:( Would love to be there,
but I would have a real hard sell to justify it and I just don't see
it happening. So, I have studied all the sheets, specs, everything I
can find on the Series Two and I like what I see - I do a lot of
musical theatre here and the MIDI-controllable mutes look sweet. Have
you had experience on the Series Two? To me, it definitely looks like
it is worth a grand extra over the GL3300, and I can finagle that
extra grand.

Post by md
Personally I wouldn't compare a GL3300 to a Series Two. They may be close
in price but their two different animals. Now to compare apples to apples
look at the Series Two against the ML3000 by A&H.

Post by b***@hotmail.com
OK - I appreciate all the info in my previous post concerning A&H vs
the Midas Venice. Now my vendor is throwing another console into the
mix - the Soundcraft Series Two. I've never worked with Soundcraft
consoles either, but looking at the features there are things I really
like - especially the 128 MIDI-controllable mute snapshots for
theatre. Anybody used one? How are the pre's, EQ section in
comparison to the GL3300? I know a guy could drive himself nuts
looking at all the different options out there - but I need to get
something going here but don't want to rush into anything, know what I
mean??? So any opinions on the Series Two would also be greatly
appreciated - thanks.

[Rick Stansby]

Post by md
Personally I wouldn't compare a GL3300 to a Series Two. They may be close
in price but their two different animals. Now to compare apples to apples
look at the Series Two against the ML3000 by A&H.

What?!?
The Series Two and the GL3300 have almost identical feature sets,
while the ML3000 has many that the Series Two doesn't have. The
series two may be slightly better board sonically, and the 3300 may be
a little more sturdy, but it is definitely an apples to apples
comparison. I'd go as far as to say that Soundcraft designed the
Series Two with the 3300 in mind as the benchmark to beat. Soundcraft
made 8 group 8 aux boards before Allen and Heath, but before the
Series Two came out (and now the HP8 and Verona) the GL3300 was about
the only budget 8x8 out there. Certainly the most popular.

To the original poster. Get the Soundcraft. It is more rider
friendly and it has the mutes scenes you seem like.
--
Rick

[Phildo at sea]

Post by md
Personally I wouldn't compare a GL3300 to a Series Two. They may be close
in price but their two different animals. Now to compare apples to apples
look at the Series Two against the ML3000 by A&H.

Bollocks to that. Have you even used these desks?

The Series two feels cheap and nasty. I'd stick with the GL3300 since
the feature sets are pretty much the same while the A&H has individual
PCBs and much better overall construction.

Phildo

[c***@uiuc.edu]

Post by Phildo at sea

Post by md
Personally I wouldn't compare a GL3300 to a Series Two. They may be close
in price but their two different animals. Now to compare apples to apples
look at the Series Two against the ML3000 by A&H.

Bollocks to that. Have you even used these desks?
The Series two feels cheap and nasty. I'd stick with the GL3300 since
the feature sets are pretty much the same while the A&H has individual
PCBs and much better overall construction.
Phildo

Agree with Phildo. I used a Series 2 for about a month and it was an
utter POS!!! I hated it! The meter bridge ghosted other channels all
over the place, I had to reset the CPU 3 times (diffrernt occasions)
because it would not unmute! Screws were always coming loose, the
faders felt cheap. It's built in groups of 8. This board was an early
version, barely used, and in an R&R custom doghoused case (good F-ing
case). It has no reason to perform as miserably as it did. I would
definately stick to the GL3300, it's solid and proven with the
exception of Gleason's problems.

Chad

[George]

Post by c***@uiuc.edu

Post by Phildo at sea

Post by md
Personally I wouldn't compare a GL3300 to a Series Two. They may be close
in price but their two different animals. Now to compare apples to apples
look at the Series Two against the ML3000 by A&H.

Bollocks to that. Have you even used these desks?
The Series two feels cheap and nasty. I'd stick with the GL3300 since
the feature sets are pretty much the same while the A&H has individual
PCBs and much better overall construction.
Phildo

Agree with Phildo. I used a Series 2 for about a month and it was an
utter POS!!! I hated it! The meter bridge ghosted other channels all
over the place, I had to reset the CPU 3 times (diffrernt occasions)
because it would not unmute! Screws were always coming loose, the
faders felt cheap. It's built in groups of 8. This board was an early
version, barely used, and in an R&R custom doghoused case (good F-ing
case). It has no reason to perform as miserably as it did. I would
definately stick to the GL3300, it's solid and proven with the
exception of Gleason's problems.
Chad

my problems were with GL3's and gl2's I think the 3300 is made much
better
the gl3 was /is a real pos but it has been discontinued for at least 6
years now and the newer gl stuff seem to be better reliabilty wise
I would have no problem owning a 3300,I would choose it over the sc
series 2
George

[b***@hotmail.com]

Post by George

Post by c***@uiuc.edu

Post by Phildo at sea

Post by md
Personally I wouldn't compare a GL3300 to a Series Two. They may be close
in price but their two different animals. Now to compare apples to apples
look at the Series Two against the ML3000 by A&H.

Bollocks to that. Have you even used these desks?
The Series two feels cheap and nasty. I'd stick with the GL3300 since
the feature sets are pretty much the same while the A&H has individual
PCBs and much better overall construction.
Phildo

Agree with Phildo. I used a Series 2 for about a month and it was an
utter POS!!! I hated it! The meter bridge ghosted other channels all
over the place, I had to reset the CPU 3 times (diffrernt occasions)
because it would not unmute! Screws were always coming loose, the
faders felt cheap. It's built in groups of 8. This board was an early
version, barely used, and in an R&R custom doghoused case (good F-ing
case). It has no reason to perform as miserably as it did. I would
definately stick to the GL3300, it's solid and proven with the
exception of Gleason's problems.
Chad

my problems were with GL3's and gl2's I think the 3300 is made much
better
the gl3 was /is a real pos but it has been discontinued for at least 6
years now and the newer gl stuff seem to be better reliabilty wise
I would have no problem owning a 3300,I would choose it over the sc
series 2
George

Thanks for all the input everyone:) I have done some digging around
here and have managed to come up with a tad more cash to work with, so
the way it looks I will probably be ordering a ML3000-32 within the
next couple days. I do really like A&H consoles, and the step up to
the ML series has me really psyched:) I appreciate all you guys have
done to help - cheers!!:)

[c***@uiuc.edu]

Post by b***@hotmail.com
Thanks for all the input everyone:) I have done some digging around
here and have managed to come up with a tad more cash to work with, so
the way it looks I will probably be ordering a ML3000-32 within the
next couple days. I do really like A&H consoles, and the step up to
the ML series has me really psyched:) I appreciate all you guys have
done to help - cheers!!:)

Good Choice, I feel you will be quite happy. Note that there are some
new ones out with more stereo returns.

Chad

[md]

Post by b***@hotmail.com

Post by George

Post by c***@uiuc.edu

Post by Phildo at sea

Post by md
Personally I wouldn't compare a GL3300 to a Series Two. They may

be

Post by b***@hotmail.com

Post by George

Post by c***@uiuc.edu

Post by Phildo at sea

Post by md
close
in price but their two different animals. Now to compare apples

to

Post by b***@hotmail.com

Post by George

Post by c***@uiuc.edu

Post by Phildo at sea

Post by md
apples
look at the Series Two against the ML3000 by A&H.

Bollocks to that. Have you even used these desks?
The Series two feels cheap and nasty. I'd stick with the GL3300 since
the feature sets are pretty much the same while the A&H has individual
PCBs and much better overall construction.
Phildo

Agree with Phildo. I used a Series 2 for about a month and it was an
utter POS!!! I hated it! The meter bridge ghosted other channels all
over the place, I had to reset the CPU 3 times (diffrernt occasions)
because it would not unmute! Screws were always coming loose, the
faders felt cheap. It's built in groups of 8. This board was an early
version, barely used, and in an R&R custom doghoused case (good F-ing
case). It has no reason to perform as miserably as it did. I would
definately stick to the GL3300, it's solid and proven with the
exception of Gleason's problems.
Chad

my problems were with GL3's and gl2's I think the 3300 is made much
better
the gl3 was /is a real pos but it has been discontinued for at least 6
years now and the newer gl stuff seem to be better reliabilty wise
I would have no problem owning a 3300,I would choose it over the sc
series 2
George

Thanks for all the input everyone:) I have done some digging around
here and have managed to come up with a tad more cash to work with, so
the way it looks I will probably be ordering a ML3000-32 within the
next couple days. I do really like A&H consoles, and the step up to
the ML series has me really psyched:) I appreciate all you guys have
done to help - cheers!!:)

You won't be disappointed!

[Phildo at sea]

Post by md

Post by b***@hotmail.com
Thanks for all the input everyone:) I have done some digging around
here and have managed to come up with a tad more cash to work with, so
the way it looks I will probably be ordering a ML3000-32 within the
next couple days. I do really like A&H consoles, and the step up to
the ML series has me really psyched:) I appreciate all you guys have
done to help - cheers!!:)

You won't be disappointed!

For once we can agree even if your comments about it being in the same
ballpark as a series 2 were veering into loonymaroon territory.

Phildo

[md]

True!

Post by Phildo at sea

Post by md

Post by b***@hotmail.com
Thanks for all the input everyone:) I have done some digging around
here and have managed to come up with a tad more cash to work with, so
the way it looks I will probably be ordering a ML3000-32 within the
next couple days. I do really like A&H consoles, and the step up to
the ML series has me really psyched:) I appreciate all you guys have
done to help - cheers!!:)

You won't be disappointed!

For once we can agree even if your comments about it being in the same
ballpark as a series 2 were veering into loonymaroon territory.
Phildo

[md]

Also, check out the new Midas Verona

Post by b***@hotmail.com
OK - I appreciate all the info in my previous post concerning A&H vs
the Midas Venice. Now my vendor is throwing another console into the
mix - the Soundcraft Series Two. I've never worked with Soundcraft
consoles either, but looking at the features there are things I really
like - especially the 128 MIDI-controllable mute snapshots for
theatre. Anybody used one? How are the pre's, EQ section in
comparison to the GL3300? I know a guy could drive himself nuts
looking at all the different options out there - but I need to get
something going here but don't want to rush into anything, know what I
mean??? So any opinions on the Series Two would also be greatly
appreciated - thanks.

[George]

Post by b***@hotmail.com
OK - I appreciate all the info in my previous post concerning A&H vs
the Midas Venice. Now my vendor is throwing another console into the
mix - the Soundcraft Series Two. I've never worked with Soundcraft
consoles either, but looking at the features there are things I really
like - especially the 128 MIDI-controllable mute snapshots for
theatre. Anybody used one? How are the pre's, EQ section in
comparison to the GL3300? I know a guy could drive himself nuts
looking at all the different options out there - but I need to get
something going here but don't want to rush into anything, know what I
mean??? So any opinions on the Series Two would also be greatly
appreciated - thanks.

I think the series 2 is significantly more money than the 3300
I had the midi on my k2 , never used it
soundcraft cut some serious corners making the series two, it is more a
lx7 in a puffy dress than anything else
i would choose 3300 over series 2

[Paul van der Heu]

Post by George
soundcraft cut some serious corners making the series two, it is more a
lx7 in a puffy dress than anything else
i would choose 3300 over series 2

Same here, I used both and the 3300 is the better board IMO.

From the problems I have seen happen I think th eseries two is build with 8
channel sections, no single channel PCBs, as I've seen them break down and
always taking out 8 channels if they did..

[b***@hotmail.com]

Post by Paul van der Heu

Post by George
soundcraft cut some serious corners making the series two, it is more a
lx7 in a puffy dress than anything else
i would choose 3300 over series 2

Same here, I used both and the 3300 is the better board IMO.
From the problems I have seen happen I think th eseries two is build with 8
channel sections, no single channel PCBs, as I've seen them break down and
always taking out 8 channels if they did..

OK - the saga continues:( You know, buying a new console is
definitely not as much fun as it shoud be. I had my mind pretty much
made up on a ML3000, but lo and behold I opened up the spec sheets on
a GL4000. Aha - features I couldn't get on a ML3000 that I was
looking for, primarily a switchable aux send on each channel that
doubles as a direct out level trim. ML3000 can be internally patched
for aux 1 to do so but that is permanent - so I am then down to 7
aux's which is only one more than I've got right now - not worth it.
I have an Alesis HD24 that I want to record some live shows to and I
want the luxury of a direct out level trim, but at the same time
having only 7 aux's for those shows will put me in a real bind. GL4000
will have 9 aux's available to me after the switch. So point #1 for
the 4000. Point #2 - way better looking EQ section - all 4 bands are
sweepable and mids have switchable Q. Point #3 - XLR mic/line inputs
on the stereo channels - since they make you take at least 4 stereo
channels (or none) on a 32 channel console I like the thought of being
able to use them for mics. EQ'ing isn't as great, but I would use
them for something that doesn't need as much. Point #4 - mute scenes
can be patched internally on the GL4000 - ML3000 needs an external
computer with the Archiver software to do so. Point #5 - the GL still
has 1/4" inputs on each channel - I just spent some good cash on 1/4"
TRS cables for the HD24 hook-up and until next year when I get the
patch bay set up don't want to buy any more. Noise specs are pretty
close to the same on each console, and I guess the only negatives are
that I'm giving up VCA's and an extra $1,000. So I ordered it
today!!! No more dinkin around - I actually wanted to have a weekend
where I wouldn't be frettin over specs and combinations:) So, have a
good weekend all - good gigging - and if anyone has any GL4000 tips or
anything feel free to let me have it:)

[Tim Padrick]

What ever board you get, I would modify the direct outs so that they are
post preamp only and thus ahead of the insert and EQ. This way you won't
have any compression on tape that you wish you could undo, and mid-show EQ
changes won't require extra work when mixing the recorded tracks. A friend
modified his Venice this way, and it has worked just as he hoped.

Post by b***@hotmail.com

Post by Paul van der Heu

Post by George
soundcraft cut some serious corners making the series two, it is more a
lx7 in a puffy dress than anything else
i would choose 3300 over series 2

Same here, I used both and the 3300 is the better board IMO.
From the problems I have seen happen I think th eseries two is build with 8
channel sections, no single channel PCBs, as I've seen them break down and
always taking out 8 channels if they did..

OK - the saga continues:( You know, buying a new console is
definitely not as much fun as it shoud be. I had my mind pretty much
made up on a ML3000, but lo and behold I opened up the spec sheets on
a GL4000. Aha - features I couldn't get on a ML3000 that I was
looking for, primarily a switchable aux send on each channel that
doubles as a direct out level trim. ML3000 can be internally patched
for aux 1 to do so but that is permanent - so I am then down to 7
aux's which is only one more than I've got right now - not worth it.
I have an Alesis HD24 that I want to record some live shows to and I
want the luxury of a direct out level trim, but at the same time
having only 7 aux's for those shows will put me in a real bind. GL4000
will have 9 aux's available to me after the switch. So point #1 for
the 4000. Point #2 - way better looking EQ section - all 4 bands are
sweepable and mids have switchable Q. Point #3 - XLR mic/line inputs
on the stereo channels - since they make you take at least 4 stereo
channels (or none) on a 32 channel console I like the thought of being
able to use them for mics. EQ'ing isn't as great, but I would use
them for something that doesn't need as much. Point #4 - mute scenes
can be patched internally on the GL4000 - ML3000 needs an external
computer with the Archiver software to do so. Point #5 - the GL still
has 1/4" inputs on each channel - I just spent some good cash on 1/4"
TRS cables for the HD24 hook-up and until next year when I get the
patch bay set up don't want to buy any more. Noise specs are pretty
close to the same on each console, and I guess the only negatives are
that I'm giving up VCA's and an extra $1,000. So I ordered it
today!!! No more dinkin around - I actually wanted to have a weekend
where I wouldn't be frettin over specs and combinations:) So, have a
good weekend all - good gigging - and if anyone has any GL4000 tips or
anything feel free to let me have it:)

[George]

- and if anyone has any GL4000 tips or

Post by b***@hotmail.com
anything feel free to let me have it:)

make sure you get the spare power supply
often much cheaper when bouht as part of the tour package to start with
George

[Paul van der Heu]

Post by b***@hotmail.com
where I wouldn't be frettin over specs and combinations:) So, have a
good weekend all - good gigging - and if anyone has any GL4000 tips or
anything feel free to let me have it:)

Sounds to me you would have been happy with the Behringer DDX 3216.. In
fact I just sold my GL3300 because eversince I got the DDX last year it was
basically out of work..;^)

[Phildo at sea]

Post by Paul van der Heu

Post by b***@hotmail.com
where I wouldn't be frettin over specs and combinations:) So, have a
good weekend all - good gigging - and if anyone has any GL4000 tips or
anything feel free to let me have it:)

Sounds to me you would have been happy with the Behringer DDX 3216.. In
fact I just sold my GL3300 because eversince I got the DDX last year it was
basically out of work..;^)

Only problem with the Behringer in this application would have been
the lack of aux sends. If the poster has his own favourite outboard
then he'd be pushed to use it and run monitor mixes at the same time.

Still, digital is certainly the way to go and the days of the analogue
desk are truly numbered.

Phildo

[Paul van der Heu]

Post by Phildo at sea
Only problem with the Behringer in this application would have been
the lack of aux sends. If the poster has his own favourite outboard

Why? He has 8 sends, he can use the 16 busses to direct out channels with
separate gain and pan control. He also has direct outs on all channels
through ADAT..

I often do gigs where I use three effects (two built in and one external)
and have 6 monitor groups without any problems..

[b***@hotmail.com]

Post by Paul van der Heu

Post by Phildo at sea
Only problem with the Behringer in this application would have been
the lack of aux sends. If the poster has his own favourite outboard

Why? He has 8 sends, he can use the 16 busses to direct out channels with
separate gain and pan control. He also has direct outs on all channels
through ADAT..
I often do gigs where I use three effects (two built in and one external)
and have 6 monitor groups without any problems..

I did look at a couple digital consoles, but I am just not ready to go
that route - not quite sure if I ever will be. Call me an old
schooler, but I don't want to be having to search menus during a show
to adjust a channel EQ on a head mic that is suddenly acting up - or
tweaking a send to the recorder because someone's vocals tonight are
not as loud as last night. I like hands on - if I have all 32
channels plugged I want 32 faders - not 2 layers of 16. The reason I
like the GL4000 is the programable mute scenes - when I am doing a
show with 15-20 head mics it is going to make life grand - and with
using in-ears for most shows for the pit band the more aux's I can get
the better. I'm not knocking digital - it is just not for me.

[George Gleason]

Post by b***@hotmail.com
I did look at a couple digital consoles, but I am just not ready to go
that route - not quite sure if I ever will be.

soon you will not be able to get work with old school desks(within 10 years
I guess) for the VAST majority of shows

Call me an old

Post by b***@hotmail.com
schooler, but I don't want to be having to search menus during a show
to adjust a channel EQ on a head mic that is suddenly acting up - or
tweaking a send to the recorder because someone's vocals tonight are
not as loud as last night. I like hands on - if I have all 32
channels plugged I want 32 faders - not 2 layers of 16.

The gl is a excellent desk but your fears come from not having experianced
the freedom of a digital desk
a desk like the dm1k will give you a much higher quality mix than any old
school desk at up to 10x its price point
and is easier to use as well

The reason I

Post by b***@hotmail.com
like the GL4000 is the programable mute scenes - when I am doing a
show with 15-20 head mics it is going to make life grand - and with
using in-ears for most shows for the pit band the more aux's I can get
the better. I'm not knocking digital - it is just not for me.

that is fine, I like the 4000 as well but if you are not learning the
digital protocols you will soon be out of a job, or unable to get one when
the world of copper trunks and such disappear
soon mics will be sending digital signals via wi-fi to your digital desk and
your desk will have a wireless connect to the powered speakers
no more stage wires, amp racks, snakes, return lines
I would guess many of they speakers will run on fuelcell technology
eliminateing the AC feed
the future will be as diffrent from today as back when roads were built by
mules dragging wodden barrels of tar to hand shoveled plank roads is from a
modern one pass road maker

There may be enough time to recoup the investment in a 15,000$ analouge desk
but if I was spending 15,000 it would be a dm2k
George



---
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[Paul van der Heu]

Post by George Gleason
the future will be as diffrent from today as back when roads were
built by mules dragging wodden barrels of tar to hand shoveled plank
roads is from a modern one pass road maker

True, however the picture of the future you are painting will not come in
our working lifetime I am certain (at least for us over 40 that is..)

[George]

Post by Paul van der Heu

Post by George Gleason
the future will be as diffrent from today as back when roads were
built by mules dragging wodden barrels of tar to hand shoveled plank
roads is from a modern one pass road maker

True, however the picture of the future you are painting will not come in
our working lifetime I am certain (at least for us over 40 that is..)

three years ago I was told by this group there was no future in dgital
desks
I say it will alpha test in 3 years and by 10 years and most major
concerts will be digital from mic to speaker and most likely wireless
be "the way it is done " within 20
the bulk of desks will be digital in 3 years
george

[Paul van der Heu]

Post by b***@hotmail.com
I did look at a couple digital consoles, but I am just not ready to go
that route - not quite sure if I ever will be. Call me an old
schooler, but I don't want to be having to search menus during a show
to adjust a channel EQ on a head mic that is suddenly acting up - or
tweaking a send to the recorder because someone's vocals tonight are
not as loud as last night. I like hands on - if I have all 32

TBH, I though exactly the same way untill I played with a friends DDX3216
for one night.. And I never looked back. Using a digital desk is not as
cumbersome as you make it out to be, there is no 'searchine menus' on a
desk like the DDX3216, it's one buttonpress and you have control over
whatever you need on ALL channels.. (or the one you are working on ,
whatever your need..

Using 2 pages of 16 is in fact a plus IMO as you can group stuff together.
In fact on larger gigs I use my 8 stereo busses most of the time and have
them on the faders while switchig to the channel pages only for small
adjustments..

[George]

Post by b***@hotmail.com
I did look at a couple digital consoles, but I am just not ready to go
that route - not quite sure if I ever will be. Call me an old
schooler, but I don't want to be having to search menus during a show
to adjust a channel EQ on a head mic that is suddenly acting up - or
tweaking a send to the recorder because someone's vocals tonight are
not as loud as last night. I like hands on - if I have all 32

all you do is touch the fader on a DM series desk and the desk
displays all the parameters for that channel
no searching pages like old o1v, this is hot shit kit and very afforable
why one wants to carry 500 lbs of capacitors and wire ina 8 foot wide
steel box then support it with three racks of outboard and two 1500.00
power supplies when they can do it in a one man one 100 lb desk is
beyond me
I take delivery of my dm1k in 2 weeks
George

[Chris Hinds]

Post by George
all you do is touch the fader on a DM series desk and the desk
displays all the parameters for that channel
no searching pages like old o1v, this is hot shit kit and very afforable
why one wants to carry 500 lbs of capacitors and wire ina 8 foot wide
steel box then support it with three racks of outboard and two 1500.00
power supplies when they can do it in a one man one 100 lb desk is
beyond me
I take delivery of my dm1k in 2 weeks
George

I think you missed one other thing George, how many other £1200
(01v96) or even £15000 (DM2000) desks have 4 band fully parametric EQ?
Analogue has its place perhaps, but with the new Yamaha Digital desks
having such excellent sound quality, and the new PM5d priced
significantly less than a Heritage 1000 here, who's seriously gonna
pick to spend their money on old technology. Heard rumours of a major
PM1d update coming too which will include all the updates the DM
series have had (i.e. SPX2000 algorithms etc). Always curious how the
"analogue sounds better" crowd continue to feed their signal from the
H3000 right into a BSS Omnidrive or DBX driverack. The future is
here, don't let it run y'all over.

Looking forward to your reports on the DM1000 George, I think that's
my next desk too

Regards


Chris

[Rick Stansby]

Let me get this straight. The Series Two is a cheaply built POS
because it has 8 channel modules, but the DM1K is a tank with its
completely non modular construction.
--
Rick

[George]

Post by Rick Stansby
Let me get this straight. The Series Two is a cheaply built POS
because it has 8 channel modules, but the DM1K is a tank with its
completely non modular construction.
--
Rick

alot has to do with the inherent diffrence in a analouge channel and a
digital channel
a analouge channel needs to duplicate most of the capacitors, resistors
, solder traces and stuff with coponents
the digital does not need all this baggage to jossle about and fail
most DSP modules are VERY well mounted
George

[Ralph Staub]

Post by Rick Stansby
Let me get this straight. The Series Two is a cheaply built POS
because it has 8 channel modules, but the DM1K is a tank with its
completely non modular construction.

Service on a digital console is minimal compared to an analog. I'll bet
if you ask 3 series two owners and 3 DM1K owners, you'll find that the
DM's have had next to no service while the Series two's have probably
all been opened recently. As it's your initial criticism, I'll let you
do the research to (try to) prove me wrong.

I'm guessing By your comments that you're the type that still shouts
through a megaphone and records audio on a spool of wire? Even if you're
not, there's plenty of other old school audio guys out there that need
to hear this rant. I suppose that means more room for the rest of us
when they're clients don't want to pay to bring in a three ton console
and ten racks of gear that only tries to equal that 75lb, 17" wide, DM1K.

For those who don't quite understand, Digital consoles are here. In 3-5
years they will be the industry standard for most all applications, and
Yamaha is leading the way. Our industry is not used to big sweeping
changes like this. We've been doing it pretty much the same way for
quite some time. It's a tough change, but we've either got to get on the
wagon or rot with all the analog gear. Analog has served us well for
decades, but those who don't move on are destined to get run over.

Ralph

[Ralph Staub]

Post by Ralph Staub
I'm guessing By your comments that you're the type that still shouts
through a megaphone and records audio on a spool of wire? Even if you're
not,

Actually, I read back through some of your older posts, and it would
appear you hung up the megaphone some time ago... Please accept my
apologies for including you in the "Geriatric Analog Klingons" group...

Ralph

[Tim S Kemp]

Post by Ralph Staub

Post by Rick Stansby
Let me get this straight. The Series Two is a cheaply built POS
because it has 8 channel modules, but the DM1K is a tank with its
completely non modular construction.

Service on a digital console is minimal compared to an analog. I'll
bet if you ask 3 series two owners and 3 DM1K owners, you'll find
that the DM's have had next to no service while the Series two's have
probably all been opened recently. As it's your initial criticism,
I'll let you do the research to (try to) prove me wrong.

I'll second that - my 01Vs are two and three years old, one is installed,
one is gigged and used as a slave to the install, neither have any faults,
skipping, signs of fater wear etc and the have needed no service work during
the time.

[Phildo at sea]

Post by Rick Stansby
Let me get this straight. The Series Two is a cheaply built POS
because it has 8 channel modules, but the DM1K is a tank with its
completely non modular construction.

Your logic is faultless apart from two major flaws. First of all, the
yamaha is digital and has far less components to go wrong whereas the
soundcraft is an analogue board and therefore has far more potential
faults. Secondly, the yamaha is digital and has far less components to
go wrong whereas the soundcraft is an analogue board and therefore has
far more potential faults.

OK, maybe point 1 is very similar to point 2 but it is such an
important point I thought it worth mentioning twice just so you could
understand :-)

Phildo

[c***@uiuc.edu]

Post by Rick Stansby
Let me get this straight. The Series Two is a cheaply built POS
because it has 8 channel modules, but the DM1K is a tank with its
completely non modular construction.

No, I said it was a POS because it was unreliable, and I had to keep
putting it back together. When the mutegroups died and everything
muted I had to go to a backup console, this was not during soundcheck!
The meters ghosted other channels. The screws they use to hold it
together are very soft metal and they suck. Not good if you have to
take it apart all the time.

Soundwise we can argue all day because that's entirely a qualitative
decision and cannot be "proved"

As for rider friendly... I'll never touch one again and know many
engineers who feel the same.

I've had great luck with upper end Soundcraft desks, K2 and above,
older 500's and above. But have NEVER seen a spirit or series 2 that
didn't have something wrong with it by the end of the show.

That, my friend, defines a POS.

Btw grab the aux1 knob about channel 4 on a Series two and move it up
and down (pull in and out) Notice every f-ing knob around it moving
up and down too? comon not even a M*kie is this flimsy.

Chad

[Paul van der Heu]

Post by c***@uiuc.edu
older 500's and above. But have NEVER seen a spirit or series 2 that
didn't have something wrong with it by the end of the show.

I have used the LX7 in both 24 and 16 channel versions for years and they
_NEVER_ failed on me. In fact I still have a 16 channel one which gets
thrown around alot and works just fine after years of use. I rent it out at
35 euro/day and it still pays a large chunk of my rent every month..

For the money I think this is one of the best boards you can get.

[George Gleason]

Post by Paul van der Heu

Post by c***@uiuc.edu
older 500's and above. But have NEVER seen a spirit or series 2 that
didn't have something wrong with it by the end of the show.

I have used the LX7 in both 24 and 16 channel versions for years and they
_NEVER_ failed on me. In fact I still have a 16 channel one which gets
thrown around alot and works just fine after years of use. I rent it out at
35 euro/day and it still pays a large chunk of my rent every month..
For the money I think this is one of the best boards you can get.

I agree
I have had 2 lx7 in service one for 3 years one for a year both flawless
performers, sound much warmer thanthe A&H stuff has lall the features of the
2200 in 1/2 the footprint and 2/3 the price
I would take the lx7 over the small Midas
George


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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[Ian McKeown]

Post by George Gleason

Post by Paul van der Heu

Post by c***@uiuc.edu
older 500's and above. But have NEVER seen a spirit or series 2 that
didn't have something wrong with it by the end of the show.

I have used the LX7 in both 24 and 16 channel versions for years and they
_NEVER_ failed on me. In fact I still have a 16 channel one which gets
thrown around alot and works just fine after years of use. I rent it out

at

Post by Paul van der Heu
35 euro/day and it still pays a large chunk of my rent every month..
For the money I think this is one of the best boards you can get.

I agree
I have had 2 lx7 in service one for 3 years one for a year both flawless
performers, sound much warmer thanthe A&H stuff has lall the features of the
2200 in 1/2 the footprint and 2/3 the price
I would take the lx7 over the small Midas
George

I will second that. I've had two LX7s for about 3 years. Only had one very
minor fault, a fuse in the power supply section went. I much prefer the eq
to A&H, but that is probably because I am more used to the way the
Soundcraft eq responds. Also I ran a Series 2 in a conference situation for
over a year, 8-10 hours a day with absolutely no problems other than a
slightly noisey fader where I spilled some coffee (the joys of trying to
stay awake when doing conference work!)
Ian

[unitron]

George <***@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<g.p.gleason-***@netnews.worldnet.att.net>...

<snip>

Post by George
all you do is touch the fader on a DM series desk and the desk
displays all the parameters for that channel

Oh, gawd, don't tell me it works like those old Ramko broadcast
consoles that used finger capacitance (or static or gremlins or sheer
cussedness) to turn things on and off?

[Phildo at sea]

Post by unitron
<snip>

Post by George
all you do is touch the fader on a DM series desk and the desk
displays all the parameters for that channel

Oh, gawd, don't tell me it works like those old Ramko broadcast
consoles that used finger capacitance (or static or gremlins or sheer
cussedness) to turn things on and off?

Nope, it's something to do with weight being placed on the fader or a
detection of movement. Still, something that can easily go wrong by
the sounds of it.

Phildo

[Gavin Ramsay]

Post by Phildo at sea

Post by unitron
<snip>

Post by George
all you do is touch the fader on a DM series desk and the desk
displays all the parameters for that channel

Oh, gawd, don't tell me it works like those old Ramko broadcast
consoles that used finger capacitance (or static or gremlins or sheer
cussedness) to turn things on and off?

Nope, it's something to do with weight being placed on the fader or a
detection of movement. Still, something that can easily go wrong by
the sounds of it.

Are you sure? I'm not beside mine ATM but I did think the silvered
finish on the faders was conductive so that the touch-sense works...
It's certainly not movement - I often tap through a few faders to check
settings without moving them.

You're right to look for features most likely to fail though, but this
is one that's very easily turned off which would leave you no worse than
any other board on the market - much better IMO of course ;-) . These
are good quality Penny & Giles faders and I've not seen reports of
touch-sense failures in the few years the DM2000's been around.

Some people really hate the touch-sensitive select feature - it's
another of those very personal things that makes a board like this which
gives you so many different ways to do stuff a Very Good Thing.

Gav

[Ralph Staub]

Post by Gavin Ramsay
Are you sure? I'm not beside mine ATM but I did think the silvered
finish on the faders was conductive so that the touch-sense works...
It's certainly not movement - I often tap through a few faders to check
settings without moving them.
You're right to look for features most likely to fail though, but this
is one that's very easily turned off which would leave you no worse than
any other board on the market - much better IMO of course ;-) . These
are good quality Penny & Giles faders and I've not seen reports of
touch-sense failures in the few years the DM2000's been around.
Some people really hate the touch-sensitive select feature - it's
another of those very personal things that makes a board like this which
gives you so many different ways to do stuff a Very Good Thing.
Gav

The important part is that the Cap. touch faders don't change any audio.
They only select the active channel displayed on the LCD and the Studio
Manager. Personally, I leave them off and use the switches, but some
guys like them.

Ralph