Discussion:
Would like some vocal mic suggestions
(too old to reply)
Stephen
2013-09-02 17:03:27 UTC
Permalink
Hi everyone,
I'm looking at getting a new vocal mic. I'm currently using a EV 967 which I do like but I want see if I can find a mic I like better. Would like to stay under $250. It needs to have good gain before feedback. My voice is kinda a low tenor and I'm not a screamer. The volume of my voice is somewhere in the middle. I'ts not real loud but not too soft. A friend lent me his Shure beta 87a which I'm going to try out next weekend. Just wanted to get some ideas on other mics to try in that price range.

Thanks, Stephen
geoff
2013-09-03 06:23:42 UTC
Permalink
"Stephen" <***@aol.com> wrote in message news:a2373197-954b-4e47-9dfb-***@googlegroups.com...
Hi everyone,
I'm looking at getting a new vocal mic. I'm currently using a EV 967 which I
do like but I want see if I can find a mic I like better. Would like to stay
under $250. It needs to have good gain before feedback. My voice is kinda a
low tenor and I'm not a screamer. The volume of my voice is somewhere in the
middle. I'ts not real loud but not too soft. A friend lent me his Shure beta
87a which I'm going to try out next weekend. Just wanted to get some ideas
on other mics to try in that price range.
********************************

AKG D5, or maybe C5 .

geoff
Denny Strauser
2013-09-04 05:22:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen
Hi everyone,
I'm looking at getting a new vocal mic. I'm currently using a EV 967 which I do like but I want see if I can find a mic I like better. Would like to stay under $250. It needs to have good gain before feedback. My voice is kinda a low tenor and I'm not a screamer. The volume of my voice is somewhere in the middle. I'ts not real loud but not too soft. A friend lent me his Shure beta 87a which I'm going to try out next weekend. Just wanted to get some ideas on other mics to try in that price range.
Thanks, Stephen
I suggest you experiment with a number of mics before you buy one. Gain
before feedback is relative. With a decent sound engineer, all
professional vocal mics have reasonably good gain before feedback. With
a suck engineer, none do.

How you use your mic has more to do with how the mic sounds than the
brand or model of mic. Every voice is different.

- Denny
Phil Allison
2013-09-04 07:09:07 UTC
Permalink
"Denny Strauser"
Post by Denny Strauser
I suggest you experiment with a number of mics before you buy one. Gain
before feedback is relative. With a decent sound engineer, all
professional vocal mics have reasonably good gain before feedback. With a
suck engineer, none do.
** The vocalist has more input than anyone else into getting amplification
free of feedback despite a loud band in the near vicinity.

Having a strong voice, close working and not cupping the mic head are all
crucial.
Post by Denny Strauser
How you use your mic has more to do with how the mic sounds than the brand
or model of mic. Every voice is different.
** Funny how those with thin, crappy voices fret more about what mic to use
than anyone else.


... Phil
Mickey Langan
2013-09-04 11:05:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen
I'm looking at getting a new vocal mic. I'm currently using a EV 967
which I do like but I want see if I can find a mic I like better.
Would like to stay under $250. It needs to have good gain before
feedback. My voice is kinda a low tenor and I'm not a screamer. The
volume of my voice is somewhere in the middle. I'ts not real loud but
not too soft. A friend lent me his Shure beta 87a which I'm going to
try out next weekend. Just wanted to get some ideas on other mics to
try in that price range.
As a vocalist, I can tell you that the eq job has more to do with it
than the mic. That being said, I have ones I prefer. I like the 87a,
but like the Beta 58a about as well. I also like the Sennheiser 945
head quite a bit. (I am a baritone but move up to low tenor range.)
--
Mickey

"The secret of a good sermon is to have a good beginning and a good
ending, then having the two as close together as possible."
-- George Burns
Stephen
2013-09-04 23:33:13 UTC
Permalink
Thanks guys! I'm going to try out a Beta 87a this weekend. Then after that I'm going try out some others. I forgot to add in my original post that I sing right on top of the mic. Not sure if that will eliminate some mics or not. Someone recommended a Heil PR35, but said that you should be back a few inches from it when singing.

Thanks, Stephen
Peter Larsen
2013-09-05 17:04:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen
Thanks guys! I'm going to try out a Beta 87a this weekend. Then after
that I'm going try out some others. I forgot to add in my original
post that I sing right on top of the mic. Not sure if that will
eliminate some mics or not. Someone recommended a Heil PR35, but said
that you should be back a few inches from it when singing.
An inch or two away from the mouth has more to do with mouth acoustics than
with mic acoustics. You can equalize your way out of the proximity boost,
but not out of detuning the mouth resonances. There was a lot of wisdom in
Tom Jones using a MD211!

The SM57 with foam windscreen is a good choice for much the same reason, it
is less of an obstacle to sound than for instance a SM58 and the windscreen
keeps it just a wee bit out of harms way and out of doing harm to your
sound.

The stuff the learned guys here suggested may well be better and more
suitable. And the mic chosen also needs to work well with the
characteristics of the loudspeakers you use, it is unavoidably a non-simple
choice.
Post by Stephen
Thanks, Stephen
Kind regards

Peter Larsen
Phil Allison
2013-09-05 22:50:08 UTC
Permalink
"Peter Larsen"
Post by Peter Larsen
An inch or two away from the mouth has more to do with mouth acoustics
than with mic acoustics. You can equalize your way out of the proximity
boost, but not out of detuning the mouth resonances. There was a lot of
wisdom in Tom Jones using a MD211!
** Stupid, false advice.

Tom Jones had a massively loud voice, he barely needed a mic at all.
Post by Peter Larsen
The SM57 with foam windscreen is a good choice for much the same reason,
it is less of an obstacle to sound than for instance a SM58 and the
windscreen keeps it just a wee bit out of harms way and out of doing harm
to your sound.
** Verbal gobbledegook.

The OP is not Tom fucking Jones.

Very likely he has almost no voice and expects a mic to magically give him
one.

Every question on usenet has a person behind it - mostly with narcissistic
& ridiculous expectations about the answer.

This is just another one.


... Phil
Peter Larsen
2013-09-08 15:48:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Allison
"Peter Larsen"
Post by Peter Larsen
An inch or two away from the mouth has more to do with mouth
acoustics than with mic acoustics. You can equalize your way out of
the proximity boost, but not out of detuning the mouth resonances.
There was a lot of wisdom in Tom Jones using a MD211!
** Stupid, false advice.
No, you broke the context.
Post by Phil Allison
Tom Jones had a massively loud voice, he barely needed a mic at all.
That is right.
Post by Phil Allison
Post by Peter Larsen
The SM57 with foam windscreen is a good choice for much the same
reason, it is less of an obstacle to sound than for instance a SM58
and the windscreen keeps it just a wee bit out of harms way and out
of doing harm to your sound.
** Verbal gobbledegook.
You know your electronics better than your voice-art. What I said was simply
that a smaller mic is likelĂ˝ to cause fewer additional problems than a large
mic.
Post by Phil Allison
The OP is not Tom fucking Jones.
That is right.
Post by Phil Allison
Very likely he has almost no voice and expects a mic to magically
give him one.
A bit harsh, you don't know, you only assume.
Post by Phil Allison
Every question on usenet has a person behind it - mostly with
narcissistic & ridiculous expectations about the answer.
No comment needed.
Post by Phil Allison
This is just another one.
Yes, Phil, you _are_ a narcissistic twit, but you also know your electronics
and generally you are helpful, even in your most noxious comments if read
wisely.
Post by Phil Allison
... Phil
Have a pleasant rage, been wondering what had become of you.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen
cameronproaudio
2013-09-08 19:41:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Allison
"Peter Larsen"
Post by Peter Larsen
An inch or two away from the mouth has more to do with mouth acoustics
than with mic acoustics. You can equalize your way out of the proximity
boost, but not out of detuning the mouth resonances. There was a lot of
wisdom in Tom Jones using a MD211!
** Stupid, false advice.
Tom Jones had a massively loud voice, he barely needed a mic at all.
Post by Peter Larsen
The SM57 with foam windscreen is a good choice for much the same reason,
it is less of an obstacle to sound than for instance a SM58 and the
windscreen keeps it just a wee bit out of harms way and out of doing harm
to your sound.
** Verbal gobbledegook.
The OP is not Tom fucking Jones.
Very likely he has almost no voice and expects a mic to magically give him one.
Every question on usenet has a person behind it - mostly with narcissistic & ridiculous expectations > about the answer.
This is just another one.
... Phil
I agree. Vocalists with powerful voices & great mic technique can make pretty much any mic sound good. For vocalists with poor projection and mic technique, nothing works well. A SM58 with a relatively forgiving pattern will be as good as it gets most of the time. Putting an expensive mic with a hyper cardioid pattern on poor mic users will usually make matters much worse as they go off axis or put their mouths too far from the mic.

When I initially setup for multi-band shows that's I'm not familiar with, I'll start out with an Audix OM6 which is much better for GBF than the 58 and sounds better than a 58 *if* the vocalist knows how to use it correctly. Otherwise it gets swapped for 58 immediately. I've found with acts that play at the venue I work in often where I've done the mic swap and explained to them why, they'll sometimes work on their technique and improve it for future performances so they can use the "good" mic. That makes mixing them in the monitors and house a lot easier. Others will never get clue or take hint.
Phil Allison
2013-09-09 04:31:08 UTC
Permalink
"cameronproaudio"
Post by Phil Allison
** Verbal gobbledegook.
The OP is not Tom fucking Jones.
Very likely he has almost no voice and expects a mic to magically give him one.
Every question on usenet has a person behind it - mostly with
narcissistic & ridiculous expectations about the answer.
I agree. Vocalists with powerful voices & great mic technique can make
pretty much any mic sound good. For vocalists with poor projection and mic
technique, nothing works well. A SM58 with a relatively forgiving pattern
will be as good as it gets most of the time. Putting an expensive mic with a
hyper cardioid pattern on poor mic users will usually make matters much
worse as they go off axis or put their mouths too far from the mic.

** Spot on.

When I initially setup for multi-band shows that's I'm not familiar with,
I'll start out with an Audix OM6 which is much better for GBF than the 58
and sounds better than a 58 *if* the vocalist knows how to use it correctly.
Otherwise it gets swapped for 58 immediately.

** There are many myths surrounding vocal mic's ability to pick out a voice
from background sound and hence avoid acoustic feedback. While there are
special twin capsule "noise cancelling" mics, we are not considering them
here.

IME there are three things that do it:

1. Polar pattern.

2. Proximity effect.

3. Distance between the diaphragm and the top of the mic.

Omni mics have no directionality and no proximity effect, so are unable to
discriminate against background sound.

Cardioids have both, so sounds originating close to the mic and in front get
a big benefit - particularly male voices.

Supercardioids have more proximity effect than regular cardioids - so they
have an extra edge.

Point 3 is normally overlooked, but is often the crucial difference between
one mic and other similar ones.

The SM58, with is spherical grill, has a 27mm gap from diaphragm to the top
of the grille.

Mics with flat top grilles can have rather less, perhaps as little as 10 mm.

A 17mm difference can account for 6dB to 8dB of extra level, if the singer
uses it.



... Phil
geoff
2013-09-09 10:49:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Allison
"cameronproaudio"
Post by Phil Allison
** Verbal gobbledegook.
The OP is not Tom fucking Jones.
Very likely he has almost no voice and expects a mic to magically give him one.
Every question on usenet has a person behind it - mostly with
narcissistic & ridiculous expectations about the answer.
I agree. Vocalists with powerful voices & great mic technique can make
pretty much any mic sound good. For vocalists with poor projection and mic
technique, nothing works well.
A strong vocalist with impeccable technique will still like sound crappy as
hell on a SM58 if they have a shrill or nasal voice.

geoff
Phil Allison
2013-09-09 11:13:14 UTC
Permalink
"geoff" <***@nospampaf.co.nz>


** Baaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh.......

Sheep shagger ALERT !!!!!!
Post by geoff
Post by Phil Allison
"cameronproaudio"
I agree. Vocalists with powerful voices & great mic technique can make
pretty much any mic sound good. For vocalists with poor projection and
mic technique, nothing works well.
A strong vocalist with impeccable technique will still like sound crappy
as hell on a SM58 if they have a shrill or nasal voice.
** ROTFLMAO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

" A piece of chocolate will taste like shit, if it is really shit "

BTW:

New Zealand = the land of nervous sheep.




.... Phil
geoff
2013-09-09 21:06:07 UTC
Permalink
"
Post by Phil Allison
Post by geoff
Post by cameronproaudio
I agree. Vocalists with powerful voices & great mic technique can make
pretty much any mic sound good. For vocalists with poor projection and
mic technique, nothing works well.
A strong vocalist with impeccable technique will still like sound crappy
as hell on a SM58 if they have a shrill or nasal voice.
** ROTFLMAO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
" A piece of chocolate will taste like shit, if it is really shit "
An SM58 may accentuate troubling frequencies, whereas other mics may not. A
bit like a dynmaic C1000 !

That's what I have found from experience, andd seems backed up by what
others have found over many decades.

Maybe you find SM58s satisfying in some other unordordox way....

geoff
cameronproaudio
2013-09-09 18:09:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Allison
"cameronproaudio"
Post by Phil Allison
** Verbal gobbledegook.
The OP is not Tom fucking Jones.
Very likely he has almost no voice and expects a mic to magically give him one.
Every question on usenet has a person behind it - mostly with
narcissistic & ridiculous expectations about the answer.
I agree. Vocalists with powerful voices & great mic technique can make
pretty much any mic sound good. For vocalists with poor projection and mic
technique, nothing works well. A SM58 with a relatively forgiving pattern
will be as good as it gets most of the time. Putting an expensive mic with a
hyper cardioid pattern on poor mic users will usually make matters much
worse as they go off axis or put their mouths too far from the mic.
** Spot on.
When I initially setup for multi-band shows that's I'm not familiar with,
I'll start out with an Audix OM6 which is much better for GBF than the 58
and sounds better than a 58 *if* the vocalist knows how to use it correctly.
Otherwise it gets swapped for 58 immediately.
** There are many myths surrounding vocal mic's ability to pick out a voice
from background sound and hence avoid acoustic feedback. While there are
special twin capsule "noise cancelling" mics, we are not considering them
here.
1. Polar pattern.
2. Proximity effect.
3. Distance between the diaphragm and the top of the mic.
Omni mics have no directionality and no proximity effect, so are unable to
discriminate against background sound.
Cardioids have both, so sounds originating close to the mic and in front get
a big benefit - particularly male voices.
Supercardioids have more proximity effect than regular cardioids - so they
have an extra edge.
Point 3 is normally overlooked, but is often the crucial difference between
one mic and other similar ones.
The SM58, with is spherical grill, has a 27mm gap from diaphragm to the top
of the grille.
Mics with flat top grilles can have rather less, perhaps as little as 10 mm.
A 17mm difference can account for 6dB to 8dB of extra level, if the singer
uses it.
Yes indeed, the capsule distance is the "trick" the Audix is relying on for their GBF, especially on the their OM7 model along with the polar pattern. The damn capsule is almost touching the foam on the inside of the grill which has a big downside. I went out on a tour with Pearl Jam as a fill-in monitor tech for a month and the OM7 is their vocal mic of choice due to loud stage volume and very loud monitors. Because of the OM7's capsule to grill distance being so shallow, the lead vocal mic had to be changed 2x during the show: once half way through the set, once again before the encore. Otherwise a bridge of spittle would form between the foam and capsule screen resulting in a very "honky" sound.

As an aside, changing out the mic half way through the set was treacherous. You had 30 seconds to walk out between songs whilst there was a guitar change occurring. With replacement mic in hand, you had to walk along the front lip of the stage behind the wedges with all the cabling for the monitors and lights, with the stage lighting at 10% or less, without falling off. Then you had to remove the wet mic and walk back along the lip without tangling it on the other mic cable as you brought it back in. My first night doing it, I nearly knocked over Vedder's wine bottle. Got the evil eye for that one.
Post by Phil Allison
... Phil
Phil Allison
2013-09-10 01:43:39 UTC
Permalink
"cameronproaudio"
Post by Phil Allison
"cameronproaudio"
I agree. Vocalists with powerful voices & great mic technique can make
pretty much any mic sound good. For vocalists with poor projection and mic
technique, nothing works well. A SM58 with a relatively forgiving pattern
will be as good as it gets most of the time. Putting an expensive mic with a
hyper cardioid pattern on poor mic users will usually make matters much
worse as they go off axis or put their mouths too far from the mic.
** Spot on.
When I initially setup for multi-band shows that's I'm not familiar with,
I'll start out with an Audix OM6 which is much better for GBF than the 58
and sounds better than a 58 *if* the vocalist knows how to use it correctly.
Otherwise it gets swapped for 58 immediately.
** There are many myths surrounding vocal mic's ability to pick out a voice
from background sound and hence avoid acoustic feedback. While there are
special twin capsule "noise cancelling" mics, we are not considering them
here.
1. Polar pattern.
2. Proximity effect.
3. Distance between the diaphragm and the top of the mic.
Omni mics have no directionality and no proximity effect, so are unable to
discriminate against background sound.
Cardioids have both, so sounds originating close to the mic and in front get
a big benefit - particularly male voices.
Supercardioids have more proximity effect than regular cardioids - so they
have an extra edge.
Point 3 is normally overlooked, but is often the crucial difference between
one mic and other similar ones.
The SM58, with its spherical grill, has a 27mm gap from diaphragm to the
top
of the grille.
Mics with flat top grilles can have rather less, perhaps as little as 10 mm.
A 17mm difference can account for 6dB to 8dB of extra level, if the singer
uses it.
Yes indeed, the capsule distance is the "trick" the Audix is relying on for
their GBF, especially on the their OM7 model along with the polar pattern.
The damn capsule is almost touching the foam on the inside of the grill
which has a big downside. I went out on a tour with Pearl Jam as a fill-in
monitor tech for a month and the OM7 is their vocal mic of choice due to
loud stage volume and very loud monitors. Because of the OM7's capsule to
grill distance being so shallow, the lead vocal mic had to be changed 2x
during the show: once half way through the set, once again before the
encore. Otherwise a bridge of spittle would form between the foam and
capsule screen resulting in a very "honky" sound.


** The OP said he had one of these and liked it:

http://www.electrovoice.com/product.php?id=87

A very flat topped, supercardioid - even has an easily removed grille for
cleaning.

The "more GBF" claim is misleading with any such mic, as there is no
difference in max usable settings on the desk.

It's all about those last 17 mm !!!



.... Phil

Stephen
2013-09-06 01:32:39 UTC
Permalink
Phil,
Did I did say something bad to you. I'm not Tom Jones nor ever said I was. I think I have a pretty good voice and have been performing out live 3 or 4 times a month for ten years and plenty of people come to hear our group and compliment my voice. I was just hoping for some suggestios to narrow down my choices for some mics to try. Seeing that many people on this forum including yourself have a lot of experience I thought I would ask for help. Do you just happen to enjoy being nasty. If you thought my question was stupid why did you even reply. So I guess everyone asking for mic suggestions can't sing.

Stephen
Phil Allison
2013-09-06 05:44:12 UTC
Permalink
"Stephen"
Post by Stephen
Phil,
** Bad move, writing stupid notes like this to poster on usenet.
Post by Stephen
Did I did say something bad to you. I'm not Tom Jones nor ever said I was.
** Huh ???

I did not bring up Tom Jones and I made no post to YOU at all - my
criticisms were of Peter Larsen's post.

Google Groups is shit newsreader - so maybe you cannot tell that.

BTW:

Posting "in mid air" like this is ridiculous

Always post under someone's words so THEY know what ( and whose ) words you
are referring to.



... Phil
Stephen
2013-09-06 09:18:15 UTC
Permalink
"Phil Allison"
Post by Phil Allison
Very likely he has almost no voice and expects a mic to magically give him
one.

Not looking for any magic. I like my voice and so do many others. Why does asking
for mic suggestions from people that are knowledgeable mean that they have no voice.

Stephen
Phil Allison
2013-09-06 09:42:47 UTC
Permalink
"Stephen"
Post by Stephen
"Phil Allison"
Post by Phil Allison
Very likely he has almost no voice and expects a mic to magically give him
one.
Not looking for any magic.
** I bet you really are.
Post by Stephen
I like my voice and so do many others.
** So says an anonymous dickhead.
Post by Stephen
Why does asking for mic suggestions ...
** It's a fool's question.

There is no away to predict what some anonymous singer might happen to like
in the way of a mic.

And I did NOT post to you or about you, cos singers are all such PITA
jerks.

BTW:

Do you post similar dumb Qs on other NGs about what house to buy or where to
find a new girlfriend ?



... Phil
geoff
2013-09-07 04:09:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen
"Phil Allison"
Post by Phil Allison
Very likely he has almost no voice and expects a mic to magically give him
one.
Not looking for any magic. I like my voice and so do many others. Why does asking
for mic suggestions from people that are knowledgeable mean that they have no voice.
Steve, don't worry about Phil. He's been reeleased back into the community
and seems to have dropped his meds again.

Sugest try all the usual common mics, such as your Beta 57, maybe Beta 58
(and a SM58 ti remind you how bad things can be).

Do include the usual Sennheiser suspects, and the AKGs.

I dumped SM58s many years ago, and felt confident in investing in more than
a dozen AKG D5s.

geoff
Phil Allison
2013-09-07 04:29:59 UTC
Permalink
"geoff" <***@nospampaf.co.nz>

** Baaaaahhhhhhhhh.........
Post by geoff
Sugest try all the usual common mics, such as your Beta 57, maybe Beta 58
(and a SM58 ti remind you how bad things can be).
** Only utter morons shit can the SM58.

It is still a classic vocal and all purpose mic - famous for being tough
and long lasting too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shure_SM58

The Beta 58A is merely a small variation on the original SM58, selling at a
higher price.

( The Beta 58 is long obsolete was a complete LEMON )
Post by geoff
I dumped SM58s many years ago, and felt confident in investing in more
than a dozen AKG D5s.
** What a sheep shagging old cunt.

Supercardioid, high impedance coil (600ohm) mics from Europe ( and I suspect
made in China ) like the AKG D5 should be avoided.

One of the things that makes the SM58 sooooo reliable is the use of a low
impedance voice coil (12 ohms) followed by a step up transformer in the
handle to give a final impedance of about 280ohms.

The Beta 58A has the same setup, unlike the Beta 58 which was a dud.


... Phil
Les Cargill
2013-09-07 04:44:13 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by geoff
I dumped SM58s many years ago, and felt confident in investing in more than
a dozen AKG D5s.
I still see an awful lot of them on television, on concert
DVDs and they still sound pretty good. 'Course, that's mainly
with people who would sound good into a tin can over a string.

I suppose I should principally be jealous of you being able
to create a context in which you can tell the difference :)
Post by geoff
geoff
--
Les Cargill
geoff
2013-09-07 11:53:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Les Cargill
<snip>
Post by geoff
I dumped SM58s many years ago, and felt confident in investing in more than
a dozen AKG D5s.
I still see an awful lot of them on television, on concert
DVDs and they still sound pretty good. 'Course, that's mainly
with people who would sound good into a tin can over a string.
I suppose I should principally be jealous of you being able
to create a context in which you can tell the difference :)
You see a lot of NS-10s too.

geoff
Les Cargill
2013-09-07 16:29:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by geoff
Post by Les Cargill
<snip>
Post by geoff
I dumped SM58s many years ago, and felt confident in investing in more than
a dozen AKG D5s.
I still see an awful lot of them on television, on concert
DVDs and they still sound pretty good. 'Course, that's mainly
with people who would sound good into a tin can over a string.
I suppose I should principally be jealous of you being able
to create a context in which you can tell the difference :)
You see a lot of NS-10s too.
geoff
Yes, but I don't hear those.

--
Les Cargill
geoff
2013-09-07 23:39:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Les Cargill
Yes, but I don't hear those.
Sm58s are rugged, and fine on many voices. But on many voices they are not
fine. One may prefer a mic which sounds 'better' on a wider range of voice
in a wider range of styles.


geoff
Loading...