Discussion:
Indiana fair tragedy was no 'fluke,' expert says
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Joe Kotroczo
2011-08-17 08:01:03 UTC
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<http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44166368/ns/weather/t/indiana-fair-tragedy-was-no-fluke-expert-says/>
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Illegitimi non carborundum
Bigguy2010
2011-08-17 11:00:03 UTC
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Post by Joe Kotroczo
<http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44166368/ns/weather/t/indiana-fair-tragedy-was-no-fluke-expert-says/>
RIP all who died.

Someone will be going to jail for this extreme negligence.

G
Arny Krueger
2011-08-17 13:17:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bigguy2010
Post by Joe Kotroczo
<http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44166368/ns/weather/t/indiana-fair-tragedy-was-no-fluke-expert-says/>
RIP all who died.
Someone will be going to jail for this extreme negligence.
I don't know about that. Higher insurance premiums, beefed-up equipment and
procedures, and more attention to inspection by government including new
laws, pretty much assured.

The equipment supplier will try to shift responsibility to the people who
did the setup. His standard contract says as much. However, it is pretty
hard to make law with a contract.
Richard Webb
2011-08-17 16:35:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bigguy2010
RIP all who died.
YEp, agreed, I really feel for that guy up there running
that spot. HE had a few seconds of wtf before it took him
out to experience.
Post by Bigguy2010
Someone will be going to jail for this extreme negligence.
ONe can only hope. What i don't understand is wtf people
are thinking using structures like that in the midwest that
don't have good methods for handling such situations. IT's
a common occurrence in the middle of NOrth America this time of year. That's why carnivals etc. that do double ferris
wheels stop them and clera people away when such a system
starts up, then again, if they have the time. They have the time only if the meteorology folks are paying attention, and they're paying attention to the weather folks.

Simple fixes such as Bob describes would do a lot to
mitigate such circumstances, but it sure seems to me that
the rash of such failures recently is indicative of a
problem that needs correcting. These large shows are just
getting too complex to be left to slipshod engineering.

I'll attend such spectacles when paid only anyway. IF you
need a video wall, a flying pig, drums on a roller coaster
ride, etc. to entertain the fans then you need to spend some more time on your performance chops, at least if you purport to be a musician.

IF your songs and your performance of them isn't compelling
enough at those prices to buy a ticket then you're in the
wrong business.

Regards,
Richard
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bob urz
2011-08-17 19:21:11 UTC
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Post by Richard Webb
I'll attend such spectacles when paid only anyway.
For the price of tickets these days, that's the only way i will see most
shows. Fortunately for me, most of the major tours come my way and i see
whats up and hot in touring while getting paid to do it.




IF you
Post by Richard Webb
need a video wall, a flying pig, drums on a roller coaster
ride, etc. to entertain the fans then you need to spend some more
time on your performance chops, at least if you purport to be a musician.
Its funny how Tommy Lee described a drug induced incident at the pre
beginning of Motley Crue forming, about dreaming about flying on a "drum
roller coaster" So a good drug induced vision and lots of money can make
it come true.

One can only wonder if this is the beginning of other amusement park
type attractions at future shows. I did like the flying pig at rodger
waters wall tour. That tour was a must see if your a Floyd fan.

It seems the fans have all drank the Kool aid that we must have all the
specialty lighting and video rather than just going out and playing the
music. Of course, as one who sets these shows up i cannot bitch too much
because we get paid more and work more to put up all these toys.

As a side issue, we had a IA regional rep come through last night more
or less telling us that ETCP certification for rigging and such will be
the direction everyone should be going in the future

Bob
Richard Webb
2011-08-18 00:59:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by bob urz
Post by Richard Webb
I'll attend such spectacles when paid only anyway.
For the price of tickets these days, that's the only way i will see
most shows. Fortunately for me, most of the major tours come my way
and i see whats up and hot in touring while getting paid to do it.
YEp, and usually for me that means doing audio <g>.
Post by bob urz
Post by Richard Webb
IF you need a video wall, a flying pig, drums on a roller coaster
ride, etc. to entertain the fans then you need to spend some more
time on your performance chops, at least if you purport to be a musician.
Its funny how Tommy Lee described a drug induced incident at the pre
beginning of Motley Crue forming, about dreaming about flying on a
"drum roller coaster" So a good drug induced vision and lots of
money can make it come true.
YEp it can, and can be fun I guess, but you'd better make
damned sure of your engineering <g>.
Post by bob urz
One can only wonder if this is the beginning of other amusement park
type attractions at future shows. I did like the flying pig at
rodger waters wall tour. That tour was a must see if your a Floyd
fan.
I saw it later, it was okay, the show was very tight, lots
of taped stuff and this and that going on. I'll give 'em
that. Guess it's the old jazz head folkie etc. in me coming out. Saw Flyd at the MEtrodome in MInnesota, next night we
went to some gut bucket place iirc down on HEnnepin avenue
in Minneapolis, heard some jazz. For the money I had a lot
more fun the second night on skid row.
Post by bob urz
It seems the fans have all drank the Kool aid that we must have all
the specialty lighting and video rather than just going out and
playing the music. Of course, as one who sets these shows up i
cannot bitch too much because we get paid more and work more to put
up all these toys.
That's for sure. OFten I find the places with the room to
set up all the toys are some of those that I find myself
enjoying the whole experience less, even before you factor
in the toys. That price for nosebleed seats and bad sound just isn't something I enjoy in my old age.
Post by bob urz
As a side issue, we had a IA regional rep come through last night
more or less telling us that ETCP certification for rigging and
such will be the direction everyone should be going in the future
I can understand that. Almost has to be as these shows
become more complex, bending the reality for the punters in
the seats requires some careful engineering and adherence to safety procedures.


Regards,
Richard
... Remote audio in the southland: See www.gatasound.com
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Denny Strauser
2011-08-17 22:21:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Webb
IF you
Post by Richard Webb
need a video wall, a flying pig, drums on a roller coaster
ride, etc. to entertain the fans then you need to spend some more
time on your performance chops, at least if you purport to be a musician.
Its funny how Tommy Lee described a drug induced incident at the pre
beginning of Motley Crue forming, about dreaming about flying on a "drum
roller coaster" So a good drug induced vision and lots of money can make
it come true.
One can only wonder if this is the beginning of other amusement park
type attractions at future shows. I did like the flying pig at rodger
waters wall tour. That tour was a must see if your a Floyd fan.
Phish has flown over the audience riding a big canoe, Garth Brooks has
flown from the stage to the far upper deck of a stadium show & pink flew
on silks over the Grammy audience streaming water on their heads ... it
is not the beginning or end ...

- Denny
Sean Conolly
2011-08-18 13:33:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Kotroczo
<http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44166368/ns/weather/t/indiana-fair-tragedy-was-no-fluke-expert-says/>
I think this is another exmple of a point I made for a previous collapse:
You need a command structure at the event that is willing an able to act on
the information and issue an evacuation in time. In this case they had a
long time to realize that this was not going to be a casual storm and flat
out cancel the performance, rather than waiting to evacuate.

There's not much point arguing about making the structures sturdier, unless
you're willing to design it to stand up to an F1 tornado. Strong storms can
produce micro bursts of into the 100 MPH range, and every year they cause
structual damage to permanent buildings.

Sean
Phil Allison
2011-08-19 00:51:23 UTC
Permalink
"Sean Conolly"
"Joe Kotroczo"
Post by Joe Kotroczo
<http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44166368/ns/weather/t/indiana-fair-tragedy-was-no-fluke-expert-says/>
You need a command structure at the event that is willing an able to act
on the information and issue an evacuation in time. In this case they had
a long time to realize that this was not going to be a casual storm and
flat out cancel the performance, rather than waiting to evacuate.
** That is what will be claimed against the venue operators and also why
their insurers have a simple get out.
There's not much point arguing about making the structures sturdier,
unless you're willing to design it to stand up to an F1 tornado. Strong
storms can produce micro bursts of into the 100 MPH range, and every year
they cause structual damage to permanent buildings.
** That grandstand full of people did not fall down.



.... Phil
Arny Krueger
2011-08-19 10:31:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sean Conolly
Post by Joe Kotroczo
<http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44166368/ns/weather/t/indiana-fair-tragedy-was-no-fluke-expert-says/>
You need a command structure at the event that is willing an able to act
on the information and issue an evacuation in time. In this case they had
a long time to realize that this was not going to be a casual storm and
flat out cancel the performance, rather than waiting to evacuate.
Good point. Effective command and control can mitigate weak physical
infrastructure. The winds were predictable and were predicted hours in
advance.
Post by Sean Conolly
There's not much point arguing about making the structures sturdier,
unless you're willing to design it to stand up to an F1 tornado. Strong
storms can produce micro bursts of into the 100 MPH range, and every year
they cause structual damage to permanent buildings.
I'm with Phil on this one. The grandstand probably couldn't have withstood a
F1 tornado, but it did stand up to the gusts that took the stage down. F1
tornadoes are rare, but microbursts and a few gusts in the 50-70 mph range
are commonplace in the midwest this time of year.

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