Mains/signal combo cables - inherently fragile ?

[geoff]

I acquired 4 of these that have a screened balanced signal cable
sheathed together with a mains power cable. They have all developed
multiple breaks in the signal wires.

My guess is either:

A - It's a crap brand (no-name) of cable, or

B - That this type of cable is inherently fragile, with the signal cable
part being unduly stressed when the cable bends with it on the outer
radius of the bend.

Thoughts ?

geoff

[John Williamson]

Post by geoff
I acquired 4 of these that have a screened balanced signal cable
sheathed together with a mains power cable. They have all developed
multiple breaks in the signal wires.
A - It's a crap brand (no-name) of cable, or
B - That this type of cable is inherently fragile, with the signal cable
part being unduly stressed when the cable bends with it on the outer
radius of the bend.

They are also probably illegal for use in the UK, as you are not allowed
to combine mains power and signal wires in the same cable, or, for fixed
installations in the same conduit.

But, I'd say that option B might apply.

[geoff]

Post by John Williamson

Post by geoff
I acquired 4 of these that have a screened balanced signal cable
sheathed together with a mains power cable. They have all developed
multiple breaks in the signal wires.
A - It's a crap brand (no-name) of cable, or
B - That this type of cable is inherently fragile, with the signal cable
part being unduly stressed when the cable bends with it on the outer
radius of the bend.

They are also probably illegal for use in the UK, as you are not allowed
to combine mains power and signal wires in the same cable, or, for fixed
installations in the same conduit.
But, I'd say that option B might apply.

They are actually two separate (independantly compliant) cables with an
extra outer sheath binding them together. So possibly becomes a 'gray
area'.

geoff

[John Williamson]

Post by geoff

Post by John Williamson

Post by geoff
I acquired 4 of these that have a screened balanced signal cable
sheathed together with a mains power cable. They have all developed
multiple breaks in the signal wires.
A - It's a crap brand (no-name) of cable, or
B - That this type of cable is inherently fragile, with the signal cable
part being unduly stressed when the cable bends with it on the outer
radius of the bend.

They are also probably illegal for use in the UK, as you are not allowed
to combine mains power and signal wires in the same cable, or, for fixed
installations in the same conduit.
But, I'd say that option B might apply.

They are actually two separate (independantly compliant) cables with an
extra outer sheath binding them together. So possibly becomes a 'gray
area'.

They both need to be insulated to the higher standard to be legal. And
all the guys in the USA are wondering what we're on about....

[Mike Rivers]

Post by geoff
I acquired 4 of these that have a screened balanced signal cable
sheathed together with a mains power cable. They have all developed
multiple breaks in the signal wires.
A - It's a crap brand (no-name) of cable, or
B - That this type of cable is inherently fragile

From your description of the construction, there doesn't seem to be
anything inherently wrong. What's the history? When someone says
"acquired" it often means "was given" or "got for a great price on
eBay." Is it possible that the cables were seriously abused before you
acquired them?

It sounds like these may have been home made. Is the signal cable
multiconductor? Could it be solid wire? Or too small to withstand the
rigors of live sound?

[geoff]

Post by Mike Rivers

Post by geoff
I acquired 4 of these that have a screened balanced signal cable
sheathed together with a mains power cable. They have all developed
multiple breaks in the signal wires.
A - It's a crap brand (no-name) of cable, or
B - That this type of cable is inherently fragile

From your description of the construction, there doesn't seem to be
anything inherently wrong. What's the history? When someone says
"acquired" it often means "was given" or "got for a great price on
eBay." Is it possible that the cables were seriously abused before you
acquired them?
It sounds like these may have been home made. Is the signal cable
multiconductor? Could it be solid wire? Or too small to withstand the
rigors of live sound?

Not home-mde.

Purchased bundled with some CV subs. May have been wound too tight a
radius at some point, but were looked pretty new. Could be LEEM brand ,
or generic OEM that LEEM use.

There seem to be clean fractures every 3 or 4 metres, in the signal
wires, at separate points for the hot and cold.

Thinking about it, if you bend such a cable, if the cable on the outer
radius is held firm by the sheath and the inner-radius cable is
heavier/stronger - it should actually put a stretching stress on the
outer cable - maybe a problem as signal wires weaker weaker...


geoff

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by geoff
Purchased bundled with some CV subs. May have been wound too tight a
radius at some point, but were looked pretty new. Could be LEEM brand ,
or generic OEM that LEEM use.
There seem to be clean fractures every 3 or 4 metres, in the signal
wires, at separate points for the hot and cold.

This sounds like crap cable to me. This is the sort of thing that you
get using solid core cable for field use, etc.

Post by geoff
Thinking about it, if you bend such a cable, if the cable on the outer
radius is held firm by the sheath and the inner-radius cable is
heavier/stronger - it should actually put a stretching stress on the
outer cable - maybe a problem as signal wires weaker weaker...

Right, and if cable is well-designed, there is some expansion ability
because the individual strands can twist and untwist a bit, and the
copper is low oxygen stuff that has been soft drawn and is somewhat
elastic.

I think you are the victim of crappy Chinese manufacture. I'd try
and contact the manufacturer and just see if they know about it.
They probably do.

You could also contact Steve Lampen at Belden. He won't be able to do
anything about it but it would give him a good laugh. He loves that stuff.
--scott

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by geoff
I acquired 4 of these that have a screened balanced signal cable
sheathed together with a mains power cable. They have all developed
multiple breaks in the signal wires.
A - It's a crap brand (no-name) of cable, or
B - That this type of cable is inherently fragile, with the signal cable
part being unduly stressed when the cable bends with it on the outer
radius of the bend.
Thoughts ?

What kind of cable is it? Stranded or solid? Foil or braid shield? It may
be intended for installed use and just not able to handle being rolled and
unrolled all the time.
--scott

[geoff]

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by geoff
I acquired 4 of these that have a screened balanced signal cable
sheathed together with a mains power cable. They have all developed
multiple breaks in the signal wires.
A - It's a crap brand (no-name) of cable, or
B - That this type of cable is inherently fragile, with the signal cable
part being unduly stressed when the cable bends with it on the outer
radius of the bend.
Thoughts ?

What kind of cable is it? Stranded or solid? Foil or braid shield? It may
be intended for installed use and just not able to handle being rolled and
unrolled all the time.
--scott

Stranded. The signal wires insulation seems quite stiff though. Similar
(if not same) are sold as if for portble use:

I guess it is this stuff:
Loading Image...

[Phil Allison]

"geoff"

I acquired 4 of these that have a screened balanced signal cable sheathed
together with a mains power cable. They have all developed multiple breaks
in the signal wires.
A - It's a crap brand (no-name) of cable, or
B - That this type of cable is inherently fragile, with the signal cable
part being unduly stressed when the cable bends with it on the outer
radius of the bend.

** Ever see an old "Leslie" cabinet cable ??

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-9-pin-Leslie-Tone-Cabinet-30-ft-connecting-cable-to-organ-footpedal-/310831828771#ht_226wt_859

Mains power, balanced audio and motor speed switching all in one.

Last for yonks.



.... Phil

[geoff]

Post by Phil Allison
"geoff"

I acquired 4 of these that have a screened balanced signal cable sheathed
together with a mains power cable. They have all developed multiple breaks
in the signal wires.
A - It's a crap brand (no-name) of cable, or
B - That this type of cable is inherently fragile, with the signal cable
part being unduly stressed when the cable bends with it on the outer
radius of the bend.

** Ever see an old "Leslie" cabinet cable ??
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-9-pin-Leslie-Tone-Cabinet-30-ft-connecting-cable-to-organ-footpedal-/310831828771#ht_226wt_859
Mains power, balanced audio and motor speed switching all in one.
Last for yonks.
.... Phil

Yeah - I've got Leslie cables for my Leslie ( and PR40).

Oddly, the Leslie cables possibly aren't legal, as the mains wires
aren't separately sheathed/insulated wrt the signal ones. Maybe - I have
dissected, or needed to.

geoff

[Phil Allison]

"geoff"

Post by geoff

Post by Phil Allison
"geoff"

I acquired 4 of these that have a screened balanced signal cable sheathed
together with a mains power cable. They have all developed multiple breaks
in the signal wires.
A - It's a crap brand (no-name) of cable, or
B - That this type of cable is inherently fragile, with the signal cable
part being unduly stressed when the cable bends with it on the outer
radius of the bend.

** Ever see an old "Leslie" cabinet cable ??
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-9-pin-Leslie-Tone-Cabinet-30-ft-connecting-cable-to-organ-footpedal-/310831828771#ht_226wt_859
Mains power, balanced audio and motor speed switching all in one.
Last for yonks.

Yeah - I've got Leslie cables for my Leslie ( and PR40).

** So you were trolling us as usual.

Post by geoff
Oddly, the Leslie cables possibly aren't legal,

** Got SFA to do with your fucking stupid troll.

FOAD shit head.






as the mains wires

Post by geoff
aren't separately sheathed/insulated wrt the signal ones. Maybe - I have
dissected, or needed to.
geoff

[geoff]

Post by Phil Allison

Post by geoff
Yeah - I've got Leslie cables for my Leslie ( and PR40).

** So you were trolling us as usual.

Que ?

Post by Phil Allison

Post by geoff
Oddly, the Leslie cables possibly aren't legal,

** Got SFA to do with your fucking stupid troll.
FOAD shit head.

Overdue time to take your meds again Phil.

geoff

[Phil Allison]

"geoff"
<

Post by Phil Allison

Post by geoff
Yeah - I've got Leslie cables for my Leslie ( and PR40).

** So you were trolling us as usual.

Que ?

** Stop snipping and READ you own question - fool.

[hank alrich]

Post by geoff
Overdue time to take your meds again Phil.

I dont think there's a pill for PMS yet.

[geoff]

Post by geoff
Yeah - I've got Leslie cables for my Leslie ( and PR40).
Oddly, the Leslie cables possibly aren't legal, as the mains wires
aren't separately sheathed/insulated wrt the signal ones. Maybe - I have
dissected, or needed to.

OK, think I've solved it wrt my existing cables.

Both the 9-wire and 5-wire Leslie cable are much stiffer than my LEEM(?)
'active speaker' ones. They coil OK, at a radius of around 0.5m but will
not naturally bend tighter than that.

The 'active speaker' combo cable is far more flexible - even floppy -
and can bend at a radius of a few inches without force. However in some
orientations this stretches any cable on the outside of the radius, and
if it's the signal cable the force is amplified by the fulcrum provided
by the firmer power cable on the 'inside.

Whether or not this is a specific weakness of this brand, I do not know,
and don't really fancy spending hundreds of dollars on another brand
(Proel is available) to find out. Or it could even be the same OEM junk ...

geoff

[geoff]

Post by geoff

Post by geoff
Yeah - I've got Leslie cables for my Leslie ( and PR40).
Oddly, the Leslie cables possibly aren't legal, as the mains wires
aren't separately sheathed/insulated wrt the signal ones. Maybe - I have
dissected, or needed to.

OK, think I've solved it wrt my existing cables.
Both the 9-wire and 5-wire Leslie cable are much stiffer than my LEEM(?)
'active speaker' ones. They coil OK, at a radius of around 0.5m but will
not naturally bend tighter than that.
The 'active speaker' combo cable is far more flexible - even floppy -
and can bend at a radius of a few inches without force. However in some
orientations this stretches any cable on the outside of the radius, and
if it's the signal cable the force is amplified by the fulcrum provided
by the firmer power cable on the 'inside.
Whether or not this is a specific weakness of this brand, I do not know,
and don't really fancy spending hundreds of dollars on another brand
(Proel is available) to find out. Or it could even be the same OEM junk ...
geoff

So it seems that thanks to our resident psycho shitting all over my
thread I'll just have to take a punt on investing in a similar cable of
alternative brand ;-(

geoff

[hank alrich]

Post by geoff

Post by geoff

Post by geoff
Yeah - I've got Leslie cables for my Leslie ( and PR40).
Oddly, the Leslie cables possibly aren't legal, as the mains wires
aren't separately sheathed/insulated wrt the signal ones. Maybe - I have
dissected, or needed to.

OK, think I've solved it wrt my existing cables.
Both the 9-wire and 5-wire Leslie cable are much stiffer than my LEEM(?)
'active speaker' ones. They coil OK, at a radius of around 0.5m but will
not naturally bend tighter than that.
The 'active speaker' combo cable is far more flexible - even floppy -
and can bend at a radius of a few inches without force. However in some
orientations this stretches any cable on the outside of the radius, and
if it's the signal cable the force is amplified by the fulcrum provided
by the firmer power cable on the 'inside.
Whether or not this is a specific weakness of this brand, I do not know,
and don't really fancy spending hundreds of dollars on another brand
(Proel is available) to find out. Or it could even be the same OEM junk ...
geoff

So it seems that thanks to our resident psycho shitting all over my
thread I'll just have to take a punt on investing in a similar cable of
alternative brand ;-(
geoff

√

whew

[Lord Valve]

Post by Phil Allison
"geoff"

I acquired 4 of these that have a screened balanced signal cable sheathed
together with a mains power cable. They have all developed multiple breaks
in the signal wires.
A - It's a crap brand (no-name) of cable, or
B - That this type of cable is inherently fragile, with the signal cable
part being unduly stressed when the cable bends with it on the outer
radius of the bend.

** Ever see an old "Leslie" cabinet cable ??
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-9-pin-Leslie-Tone-Cabinet-30-ft-connecting-cable-to-organ-footpedal-/310831828771#ht_226wt_859
Mains power, balanced audio and motor speed switching all in one.
Last for yonks.
.... Phil

...

Not only that, for a 122 being operated with a console
that had no internal HV supply (as many of the early ones
did not) there were two lines for balanced audio (upon which
a DC voltage was impressed to control a tube which fired
the tremolo relay), two for AC mains, one for ground, and
one for B+! So you have signal, ground, motor control,
AC mains, and high voltage all in the same cable. I've
seen them used on the road for *decades* before failure.

Lord Valve
Tech/Organist