Behringer DEQ2496 failure(s)?

Post by Ron Capik
Hi all,
Much to my surprise, after ~2 years of flawless performance, one
of my DEQ 2496 crashed in the middle of a show. Being well out
of warranty, I popped the lid. I found the glue gun goop (they use to
hold everything in place) overflowed onto a chip, and that chip
overheated. Once cool the unit seemed to work, so I cut the goop
away, added a heatsink to the chip and all seems well for now.
[ I also ordered a backup/replacement unit, just in case... ]
Anyway, I'm wondering if folks have noted any similar (or other)
non-bathtub curve failures with these units?
For the most part these boxes seem rock solid, other than
the few out of the box failures.
Wondering if I should pop the lid on all my boxes and check
for excess goop... ?
Later...
Ron Capik

I had one remanufactured one fail out of the box. It kept cycling through
the features or kept clicking.

Ron Capik

2008-09-12 01:57:06 UTC

Post by Mike Dobony

I had one remanufactured one fail out of the box. It kept cycling through
the features or kept clicking.

Yeah, but out of the box failures fit the bathtub curve.

Later...

Ron Capik
--

Eeyore

2008-09-12 11:01:47 UTC

Post by Mike Dobony
I had one remanufactured one fail out of the box. It kept cycling through
the features or kept clicking.

Yeah, but out of the box failures fit the bathtub curve.

Not actually quite true. After say 5 hours power-on then yes. But not out of the
box.

Graham

Ron Capik

2008-09-12 13:54:11 UTC

Post by Mike Dobony
I had one remanufactured one fail out of the box. It kept cycling through
the features or kept clicking.

Yeah, but out of the box failures fit the bathtub curve.

Not actually quite true. After say 5 hours power-on then yes. But not out of the
box.
Graham

OK, point taken. Then too, assuming it worked before they shipped it
one ~could~ call it infant mortality. I would hope they at least do a power
up test.

Later...

Ron Capik
--

Eeyore

2008-09-12 14:12:44 UTC

Post by Mike Dobony
I had one remanufactured one fail out of the box. It kept cycling through
the features or kept clicking.

Yeah, but out of the box failures fit the bathtub curve.

Not actually quite true. After say 5 hours power-on then yes. But not out of the
box.

OK, point taken. Then too, assuming it worked before they shipped it
one ~could~ call it infant mortality. I would hope they at least do a power
up test.

You can be sure (I would hope) they have. If they ship them unchecked it's a disgrace
beyond belief..

Graham

Phildo

2008-09-12 18:52:23 UTC

Post by Mike Dobony
I had one remanufactured one fail out of the box. It kept cycling through
the features or kept clicking.

Yeah, but out of the box failures fit the bathtub curve.

Not actually quite true. After say 5 hours power-on then yes. But not out of the
box.

OK, point taken. Then too, assuming it worked before they shipped it
one ~could~ call it infant mortality. I would hope they at least do a power
up test.

Wouldn't matter if they did. Who knows what the unit has been through
between manufacture/QC and the user plugging it in. Truck driver could have
gone over some speedhumps too fast, truck may have gone through a very cold
area, the end user may have dropped it before putting it in the rack etc
etc.

Phildo

Eeyore

2008-09-12 19:27:36 UTC

Post by Mike Dobony
I had one remanufactured one fail out of the box. It kept cycling
through the features or kept clicking.

Yeah, but out of the box failures fit the bathtub curve.

Not actually quite true. After say 5 hours power-on then yes. But not out
of the box.

OK, point taken. Then too, assuming it worked before they shipped it
one ~could~ call it infant mortality. I would hope they at least do a
power up test.

None of which have the remotest connection to the the bathtub curve.

Graham

Peter Larsen

2008-09-13 08:16:11 UTC

Post by Ron Capik
OK, point taken. Then too, assuming it worked before they shipped it
one ~could~ call it infant mortality. I would hope they at least do a power
up test.

Wouldn't matter if they did. Who knows what the unit has been through
between manufacture/QC and the user plugging it in. Truck driver
could have gone over some speedhumps too fast, truck may have gone
through a very cold area, the end user may have dropped it before
putting it in the rack etc etc.

Or 4 EU pallets were pushed over the warehouse floor by a forklift at 15
mph, or 4 bundles of boxes where pushed similarly. I've seen it done to 4
plasma tv's in the GBP 5000 each price range... [paraphrasing] that's the
way to do it!

Post by Phildo
Phildo

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

Eeyore

2008-09-13 12:24:35 UTC

Post by Peter Larsen

Post by Ron Capik
OK, point taken. Then too, assuming it worked before they shipped it
one ~could~ call it infant mortality. I would hope they at least do a
power up test.

Wouldn't matter if they did. Who knows what the unit has been through
between manufacture/QC and the user plugging it in. Truck driver
could have gone over some speedhumps too fast, truck may have gone
through a very cold area, the end user may have dropped it before
putting it in the rack etc etc.

Still NOTHING to do with the bathtub curve though which relates exclusively
to component failure, not physical damage.

Graham

Ron Capik

2008-09-13 13:55:59 UTC

< ...snip.. >
Still NOTHING to do with the bathtub curve though which relates exclusively
to component failure, not physical damage.
Graham

OK, sadly I just got another data point. New unit, fresh out of the box,
worked for about an hour then quit working. The display lights up
and flickers a bit but it won't boot.

Oh, and it was the replacement for a DOA unit I got about a
week ago.

Damn, I don't seem to be having good luck this month.

Later...

Ron Capik
--

Mickey

2008-09-13 14:11:44 UTC

["Followup-To:" header set to alt.audio.pro.live-sound.]

< ...snip.. >
Still NOTHING to do with the bathtub curve though which relates exclusively
to component failure, not physical damage.
Graham

OK, sadly I just got another data point. New unit, fresh out of the box,
worked for about an hour then quit working. The display lights up
and flickers a bit but it won't boot.
Oh, and it was the replacement for a DOA unit I got about a
week ago.
Damn, I don't seem to be having good luck this month.

From Musician's Friend/Guitar Center, perhaps? I believe they
have taken to receiving RMAs, powering them up to see if a light
comes on, and shipping them back out. I had four similar
stories after their merger with GC, and have stopped doing business
with them.

--
Mickey
"The biofuels debacle is global warm-mongering in a nutshell: The
first victims of poseur environmentalism will always be developing
countries. In order for you to put biofuel in your Prius and feel good
about yourself for no reason, real actual people in faraway places
have to starve to death."
-Mark Steyn

hank alrich

2008-09-13 16:40:17 UTC

Post by Mickey
["Followup-To:" header set to alt.audio.pro.live-sound.]

< ...snip.. >
Still NOTHING to do with the bathtub curve though which relates exclusively
to component failure, not physical damage.
Graham

OK, sadly I just got another data point. New unit, fresh out of the box,
worked for about an hour then quit working. The display lights up
and flickers a bit but it won't boot.
Oh, and it was the replacement for a DOA unit I got about a
week ago.
Damn, I don't seem to be having good luck this month.

Word is they were bought my Mitt Romney's conglom, known for cashing-in
and flipping companies, not for customer sensitive management.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

Eeyore

2008-09-13 20:35:33 UTC

< ...snip.. >
Still NOTHING to do with the bathtub curve though which relates exclusively
to component failure, not physical damage.
Graham

OK, sadly I just got another data point. New unit, fresh out of the box,
worked for about an hour then quit working. The display lights up
and flickers a bit but it won't boot.
Oh, and it was the replacement for a DOA unit I got about a
week ago.
Damn, I don't seem to be having good luck this month.

A 'Friday Behringer' ?

Graham

John Corbett

2008-09-14 01:50:25 UTC

Post by Peter Larsen

Post by Ron Capik
OK, point taken. Then too, assuming it worked before they shipped it
one ~could~ call it infant mortality. I would hope they at least do a
power up test.

Wouldn't matter if they did. Who knows what the unit has been through
between manufacture/QC and the user plugging it in. Truck driver
could have gone over some speedhumps too fast, truck may have gone
through a very cold area, the end user may have dropped it before
putting it in the rack etc etc.

Still NOTHING to do with the bathtub curve though which relates exclusively
to component failure, not physical damage.
Graham

Actually Graham is all wet with regard to the bathtub curve. The hazard
function reflects all failures, not just component failures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve puts it this way:

"... in the early life of a product adhering to the bathtub curve, the
failure rate is high but quickly decreasing as defective products are
identified and discarded, and early sources of potential failure such as
handling and installation error are surmounted."

Eeyore

2008-09-14 07:36:04 UTC

Post by John Corbett

Post by Peter Larsen

Post by Ron Capik
OK, point taken. Then too, assuming it worked before they shipped it
one ~could~ call it infant mortality. I would hope they at least do a
power up test.

Wouldn't matter if they did. Who knows what the unit has been through
between manufacture/QC and the user plugging it in. Truck driver
could have gone over some speedhumps too fast, truck may have gone
through a very cold area, the end user may have dropped it before
putting it in the rack etc etc.

Still NOTHING to do with the bathtub curve though which relates exclusively
to component failure, not physical damage.

Actually Graham is all wet with regard to the bathtub curve. The hazard
function reflects all failures, not just component failures.

Not at all. It has exclusively to do with POH (power on hours).

Post by John Corbett
"... in the early life of a product adhering to the bathtub curve, the
failure rate is high but quickly decreasing as defective products are
identified and discarded, and early sources of potential failure such as
handling and installation error are surmounted."

Then wikipedia is WRONG in my book. Besides, modern devices aren't especially
sensitive to handling issues (other than ESD) shortof dropping them off the
tailgate of a truck or off a forklift. Which is hardly 'handling error'. It's
GROSS ABUSE. It's more likely to crack a pcb than anything else which has zilch
to do with the device bathtub curve.

Graham

DeeAa

2008-09-12 09:40:13 UTC

I'm surprised it's worked 4 you so far...I've had maybe a dozen or
more Behringer products, mixers, effects, preamps, etc. and I have yet
to find one that would actually work perfectly or I could call a good
product. I'm gonna buy a pair of their mics though soon, I hear they
work OK.

But in general, what would you expect from the cheapest shaite there
is...although there is worse stuff around, like Alto etc...but
Behringer really seems to be bottom of the barrel in my experience.
I'd take a Samson or most anything any time over Behri. In best cases
I've broken something on a behri within the first hours of operation,
like the Hellbaby wah adjustment knob, but then again...they're so
cheap it ain't even worth the trouble of driving back to the store for
replacement one.

But they be cheap indeed...I used their 16ch mixers for my band for 3
years; just buy a new desk every year, toss the old one in the bin and
don't try to get a very noiseless recording via them and they worked
fine. Then got a Mackie and it was like from another planet in all
respects.

Cheers,

Dee

Eeyore

2008-09-12 11:00:00 UTC

Post by DeeAa

Post by Ron Capik
Much to my surprise, after ~2 years of flawless performance, one
of my DEQ 2496 crashed in the middle of a show. Being well out
of warranty, I popped the lid. I found the glue gun goop (they use to
hold everything in place) overflowed onto a chip, and that chip
overheated. Once cool the unit seemed to work, so I cut the goop
away, added a heatsink to the chip and all seems well for now.
[ I also ordered a backup/replacement unit, just in case... ]
Anyway, I'm wondering if folks have noted any similar (or other)
non-bathtub curve failures with these units?
For the most part these boxes seem rock solid, other than
the few out of the box failures.
Wondering if I should pop the lid on all my boxes and check
for excess goop... ?
Later...

I'm surprised it's worked 4 you so far...I've had maybe a dozen or
more Behringer products, mixers, effects, preamps, etc. and I have yet
to find one that would actually work perfectly or I could call a good
product. I'm gonna buy a pair of their mics though soon, I hear they
work OK.
But in general, what would you expect from the cheapest shaite there
is...although there is worse stuff around, like Alto etc...but
Behringer really seems to be bottom of the barrel in my experience.
I'd take a Samson or most anything any time over Behri. In best cases
I've broken something on a behri within the first hours of operation,
like the Hellbaby wah adjustment knob, but then again...they're so
cheap it ain't even worth the trouble of driving back to the store for
replacement one.
But they be cheap indeed...I used their 16ch mixers for my band for 3
years; just buy a new desk every year, toss the old one in the bin and
don't try to get a very noiseless recording via them and they worked
fine. Then got a Mackie and it was like from another planet in all
respects.

Yes, I've seen Behringer kit 'pack up' for no good reason. An active
crossover FFS. How more lightly stressed can a piece of kit be ?

OTOH they make one of the best (really good sounding) low cost compressor
limiters money can buy. And it han't gone wrong yet !

Odd.

Are you in Europe. Do you ship your gear around a lot ? It could be a
defect caused by lead-free solder. It doesn't like vibration or low temps
stored in the truck overnight.

Graham

DeeAa

2008-09-12 11:52:58 UTC

Post by Eeyore
Yes, I've seen Behringer kit 'pack up' for no good reason. An active
crossover FFS. How more lightly stressed can a piece of kit be ?
OTOH they make one of the best (really good sounding) low cost compressor
limiters money can buy. And it han't gone wrong yet !

Well that's quite true...I've a couple of age old Composer series comps and
while they both have lost a few leds and knobs or something, they both still
work very well actually. Aside from that they do color the sound a little
even when off.

Post by Eeyore
Odd.
Are you in Europe. Do you ship your gear around a lot ? It could be a
defect caused by lead-free solder. It doesn't like vibration or low temps
stored in the truck overnight.

That's the worst---gear in a van; brought in hot from use, driven around in
subzero temps, usually left overnight...what can u do. For a few years we
hauled all our PA and even guitars in a fiberglass covered small trailer
behind an old Ford Escort - five guys too! Fun...and hell for gear...when
they spent like 8 hours in down to -30 degrees in winter and were brought in
a warm bar where the gig was...well it was wise not to just crack the guitar
cases wide open all at once...

Cheers,

Dee

Eeyore

2008-09-12 18:31:55 UTC

Post by DeeAa

Post by Eeyore
Odd.
Are you in Europe. Do you ship your gear around a lot ? It could be a
defect caused by lead-free solder. It doesn't like vibration or low temps
stored in the truck overnight.

So does it say Pb free ? Almost certainly that'll be what killed it.

Lead was originally added to solder to prevent such problems but what do
politicians know ?

Read up on 'tin pest'. That'll make you bring your gear indoors !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_pest
An equipment destroyer for anyone who has to store equipment over night even in
just cold temperatures. As warm as below 13C.

Graham

Ray Thomas

2008-09-13 06:53:00 UTC

Post by Eeyore
So does it say Pb free ? Almost certainly that'll be what killed it.
Lead was originally added to solder to prevent such problems but what do
politicians know ?
Read up on 'tin pest'. That'll make you bring your gear indoors !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_pest
An equipment destroyer for anyone who has to store equipment over night even in
just cold temperatures. As warm as below 13C.
Graham

at the risk of derailing the original thread topic altogether...just what
exactly IS in the new lead free solder ? Is it 100% tin now ? I'm sure it
isn't a 60/40 tin and bismuth mix or we'd all be keeling over at our
soldering stations ! Don't amalgams tend to dilute the negative properties
of their constituent parts ? Enquiring minds want to know...and how is the
new solder bearing up in combat conditions like aircraft landing gear
circuitry for example (you wouldn't want your tinned cores going white,
powdery and non-conductive just before landing on a winter runway !)

Earlier...
Ray

Eeyore

2008-09-13 12:31:40 UTC

Post by Ray Thomas

Post by Eeyore
So does it say Pb free ? Almost certainly that'll be what killed it.
Lead was originally added to solder to prevent such problems but what do
politicians know ?
Read up on 'tin pest'. That'll make you bring your gear indoors !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_pest
An equipment destroyer for anyone who has to store equipment over night
even in just cold temperatures. As warm as below 13C.

at the risk of derailing the original thread topic altogether...just what
exactly IS in the new lead free solder ? Is it 100% tin now ?

Often mostly tin with 0.5% copper (low cost manufacturing). Some grades add
silver (at a significant price). None of these AFAIK PREVENT tin pest though,
just make it happen slower. Various grades exist but even the best are 95+% tin
IIRC.

The Japanese tend to add bismuth too.

Post by Ray Thomas
I'm sure it
isn't a 60/40 tin and bismuth mix or we'd all be keeling over at our
soldering stations ! Don't amalgams tend to dilute the negative properties
of their constituent parts ? Enquiring minds want to know...and how is the
new solder bearing up in combat conditions like aircraft landing gear
circuitry for example (you wouldn't want your tinned cores going white,
powdery and non-conductive just before landing on a winter runway !)

Certain industries including the military and 'networking' have been exempted.
One loudspeaker company even got an exemption since the vibration would kill
tin joints.

I'm just waiting for the first deaths to be attributable to lead-free solder
then we can put the entire EU Commission on a bonfire and burn them all.

Graham

Scott Dorsey

2008-09-13 13:45:54 UTC

Post by Ray Thomas
at the risk of derailing the original thread topic altogether...just what
exactly IS in the new lead free solder ? Is it 100% tin now ? I'm sure it
isn't a 60/40 tin and bismuth mix or we'd all be keeling over at our
soldering stations !

There are dozens of different formulas out there. Most of them contain
mostly tin, but with bismuth and copper and all kinds of junk in there.
They are all much more brittle than normal 63/37 and have higher melting
temperatures (making board rework a major pain). All of the various
manufacturers can send you a datasheet about why their formulation is the
best.

Don't amalgams tend to dilute the negative properties

Post by Ray Thomas
of their constituent parts ? Enquiring minds want to know...and how is the
new solder bearing up in combat conditions like aircraft landing gear
circuitry for example (you wouldn't want your tinned cores going white,
powdery and non-conductive just before landing on a winter runway !)

Funny thing, the aviation and military folks have an exemption from RoHS
regulations, as do the telco people. Seems they have some reliability
concerns. The US military still requires 63/37 for everything they don't
require silver-bearing solder for, though I don't know about NATO specs.

I think the original RoHs idea is a good one... there is so much disposable
consumer junk out there, and it gets disposed of. The problem is that it
is getting applied to almost everything out there. And of course even though
it's not a US regulation, we still have to live with it here because everyone
wants to sell products in Europe too.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Phildo

2008-09-12 12:15:36 UTC

Post by DeeAa
.I used their 16ch mixers for my band for 3
years; just buy a new desk every year, toss the old one in the bin and
don't try to get a very noiseless recording via them and they worked
fine. Then got a Mackie and it was like from another planet in all
respects.

When is your next paycheck from Mackie due?

Behringer desks are way better than the mackies, especially since m*ckie
started building them in China.

Phildo

Eeyore

2008-09-12 12:41:39 UTC

When is your next paycheck from Mackie due?
Behringer desks are way better than the mackies, especially since m*ckie
started building them in China.

They're no different then ! Other than Mackie now has significantly superior
circuit design.

Graham

George's ProSound Company

2008-09-12 12:36:32 UTC

When is your next paycheck from Mackie due?
Behringer desks are way better than the mackies, especially since m*ckie
started building them in China.
Phildo

IMO
the quality is dead nuts equal but the behringer does not do that stupid not
muteing auxes
also I just bought a 1642 to mix my little band "Barleywine"
only to find out the refade auxes are also pre eq, requireing me to either
carry a entire monitor desk/eq rig
and have no eq on my monitor sends

The behringer are routed much more properly
the duribility is dead nuts even but the behringer costs 2/3rds less

I can find no pluses for the mackie except MAYBE the higher resale value
george

Eeyore

2008-09-12 10:54:22 UTC

Sloppy assembly. You're probably OK. Nice idea with the chip heatsink.
What was that chip btw if you remember ?

Graham

Ron Capik

2008-09-12 13:55:10 UTC

< ...snip... >

Post by Ron Capik
Wondering if I should pop the lid on all my boxes and check
for excess goop... ?

Sloppy assembly. You're probably OK. Nice idea with the chip heatsink.
What was that chip btw if you remember ?
Graham

I couldn't get all the goop off to read it, but it was one of the
large three terminal devices on the processor board. It was
running ~40 F hotter than the rest of the chips before modification.

Later...

Ron Capik
--

Eeyore

2008-09-12 14:16:00 UTC

Post by Ron Capik
Wondering if I should pop the lid on all my boxes and check
for excess goop... ?

Sloppy assembly. You're probably OK. Nice idea with the chip heatsink.
What was that chip btw if you remember ?

I couldn't get all the goop off to read it, but it was one of the
large three terminal devices on the processor board. It was
running ~40 F hotter than the rest of the chips before modification.

Sounds like a voltage regulator.

There's no damn excuse for extended power-on testing. I assume an ambient
temp of 40C.

And I've seen what can result if you're not careful.

Graham

Eeyore

2008-09-12 18:33:35 UTC

Post by Ron Capik
Wondering if I should pop the lid on all my boxes and check
for excess goop... ?

Sloppy assembly. You're probably OK. Nice idea with the chip heatsink.
What was that chip btw if you remember ?

I couldn't get all the goop off to read it, but it was one of the
large three terminal devices on the processor board. It was
running ~40 F hotter than the rest of the chips before modification.

Sounds like a voltage regulator.

Correction.

Post by Eeyore
There's no damn excuse for *not having* extended power-on testing. I assume
an ambient
temp of 40C.
And I've seen what can result if you're not careful.
Graham

Scott Dorsey

2008-09-12 14:28:51 UTC

< ...snip... >

Post by Ron Capik
Wondering if I should pop the lid on all my boxes and check
for excess goop... ?

Sloppy assembly. You're probably OK. Nice idea with the chip heatsink.
What was that chip btw if you remember ?
Graham

I couldn't get all the goop off to read it, but it was one of the
large three terminal devices on the processor board. It was
running ~40 F hotter than the rest of the chips before modification.

It's a regulator chip. It's running hot because something downstream
of it is pulling way too much current. Look for a decoupling capacitor
that also feels hot.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Ron Capik

2008-09-12 17:07:01 UTC

Post by Scott Dorsey

< ...snip... >

Post by Ron Capik
Wondering if I should pop the lid on all my boxes and check
for excess goop... ?

Sloppy assembly. You're probably OK. Nice idea with the chip heatsink.
What was that chip btw if you remember ?
Graham

I couldn't get all the goop off to read it, but it was one of the
large three terminal devices on the processor board. It was
running ~40 F hotter than the rest of the chips before modification.

It's a regulator chip. It's running hot because something downstream
of it is pulling way too much current. Look for a decoupling capacitor
that also feels hot.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I had the box closed up, but popped it back open and checked.
None of the caps are warm. I pulled the heat sink off and, with
all the glue gun goop off, the chip is running at about the same
temp as the regulator next to it. Being as it's been stressed so
much I'm going to put the heat sink back on.
Thanks for the suggestion, it was worth the second look.

Later...

Ron Capik
--

Jay Ts

2008-09-12 20:25:05 UTC

Wondering if I should pop the lid on all my boxes and check for
excess goop... ?

I would. Especially after reading all the other stories of
Behringer equipment posted just within the past few days here.
I'd want to check out the circuit board for any obvious problems,
and make sure all the internal parts are screwed or soldered in securely.

I had the box closed up, but popped it back open and checked. None of
the caps are warm. I pulled the heat sink off and, with all the glue gun
goop off, the chip is running at about the same temp as the regulator
next to it. Being as it's been stressed so much I'm going to put the
heat sink back on.

Assuming it is a 78xx or 79xx type of voltage regulator, don't
worry too much about it. I'd replace the heat sink (remember to
add fresh thermal paste) and forget about it. It's possible to break
them, and I've popped a few on mis-wired breadboarded circuits.
But generally, they are tough devices, and you probably just did
a kind of burn-in test on it.

As for the original problem, applying thermal insulation on top
of a heat sink isn't exactly a good idea. :) And no wonder it
heated up so much.

At this point I'm snickering because I'd asked on another thread
about rackmount power amps, and the Behringer A500 was mentioned.
From their web page for the product:

| To assure years of trouble-free operation, we only use the
| ultra-reliable Toshiba or Fairchild high-power transistors
| that are known for their rock-solid reputation.

But maybe not after being covered with goo! :)

Jay Ts

--
To contact me, use this web page:
http://www.jayts.com/contact.php

geoff

2008-09-14 22:10:48 UTC

Post by Scott Dorsey

< ...snip... >

Post by Ron Capik
Wondering if I should pop the lid on all my boxes and check
for excess goop... ?

Sloppy assembly. You're probably OK. Nice idea with the chip
heatsink. What was that chip btw if you remember ?
Graham

I couldn't get all the goop off to read it, but it was one of the
large three terminal devices on the processor board. It was
running ~40 F hotter than the rest of the chips before modification.

It's a regulator chip. It's running hot because something downstream
of it is pulling way too much current. Look for a decoupling
capacitor that also feels hot.

The ones on all(?) the smaller studiomaster mixers are on a piece of bracket
a square inch or so, and run too hot to touch.

Graham assures us this is fine for the device , though I don't like the
other components and PCB being baked. But that's just me.

geoff

Eeyore

2008-09-15 01:10:19 UTC

Post by geoff

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by Ron Capik
Wondering if I should pop the lid on all my boxes and check
for excess goop... ?

Sloppy assembly. You're probably OK. Nice idea with the chip
heatsink. What was that chip btw if you remember ?
Graham

I couldn't get all the goop off to read it, but it was one of the
large three terminal devices on the processor board. It was
running ~40 F hotter than the rest of the chips before modification.

It's a regulator chip. It's running hot because something downstream
of it is pulling way too much current. Look for a decoupling
capacitor that also feels hot.

The ones on all(?) the smaller studiomaster mixers are on a piece of bracket
a square inch or so, and run too hot to touch.
Graham assures us this is fine for the device , though I don't like the
other components and PCB being baked. But that's just me.

Is that on the Club models ? Trust me we do extended thermal testing. I insist
on it in fact. Never heard of one coming back for that. The IC chip itself is
rated for 125C (but not on the heatsink itself - the internal working temp).

BTW, just bought a 700D for the local venue to drive the HF as we're going
active 3 way with a Driverack PA.

It's 10 years old and looks almost new inside. The PSU board is actually cleaner
than one I have here sitting in a cupboard. And no sign of thermal stress
anywhere. What a buy for £56 ! It'll do 200+200 into 8 ohms nicely. A UK made
one of course.

Graham

Jason Lavoie

2008-09-12 23:13:16 UTC

I'm not at all surprised.. I've installed about 40 of them, and at
least 1/4 of those failed between the 1.5-2.5 year mark.
looking back, your solution may well be the most appropriate, as my
units were 99% fixed installs and didn't suffer any vibration. the
next culprit is heat.

anyway. they are what they are.. just because they're a really cool
tool, and top of the behringer pile, they're still as disposable as
every other piece of behringer gear.

Jason

Eeyore

2008-09-13 12:38:37 UTC

Post by Jason Lavoie
I'm not at all surprised.. I've installed about 40 of them, and at
least 1/4 of those failed between the 1.5-2.5 year mark.
looking back, your solution may well be the most appropriate, as my
units were 99% fixed installs and didn't suffer any vibration. the
next culprit is heat.
anyway. they are what they are.. just because they're a really cool
tool, and top of the behringer pile, they're still as disposable as
every other piece of behringer gear.

George Gleason and Phildo REALLY aren't going to like hearing you say
things like that !

Graham

Ron(UK)

2008-09-13 13:03:04 UTC

George Gleason and Phildo REALLY aren't going to like hearing you say
things like that !

All gear is disposable, some just needs disposing of sooner than others

Ron

Eeyore

2008-09-13 13:12:32 UTC

George Gleason and Phildo REALLY aren't going to like hearing you say
things like that !

All gear is disposable, some just needs disposing of sooner than others

I managed to sneak my way past the Horn's new 'no more Behringer' rule with
the ECM3000 ? measurement mic.

Graham

George's ProSound Company

2008-09-13 13:16:41 UTC

George Gleason and Phildo REALLY aren't going to like hearing you say
things like that !

All gear is disposable, some just needs disposing of sooner than others
Ron

I don't see why I have about 40 of the deq's in service for years now and
had one fail, which was replaced overnight by Behringer

I write his comments off to poor service of the instalations

I would bet dollars to doughnuts he did not sell a routine maintence
contract with his installations and as such never gets a chance to prevent,
preventable fails
if crown/crest amps were as reliable as behringer, I would still be using
them.

I have no doubt he suffered those fails, I also "believe"(due to the amount
of gear I own/sell and my decades of live and installed sound work) that
most of them were preventable

I bet in 100 years he will have 100% failure

george

Ron(UK)

2008-09-13 13:40:10 UTC

Post by George's ProSound Company

George Gleason and Phildo REALLY aren't going to like hearing you say
things like that !

All gear is disposable, some just needs disposing of sooner than others
Ron

I don't see why I have about 40 of the deq's in service for years now and
had one fail, which was replaced overnight by Behringer

What I mean is, most users would not expect to have to replace an
expensive big name item of gear after a few years, yet something of the
standard of Behringer - which could pay for itself in maybe one gig -
may be expected to last a corespondingly shorter length of time.
Obviously the complexity of the item pays a large part in the equation,
as does the quality of components, build etc.

A lot of the gear at 'my' venue is over 11 years old and still working.
EV P3000 amps, an A&H GL2000, some EV Deltamax, SX300s etc. some of it
has now been replaced as a matter of course but most of the original
install gear still works fine.

Ron

Scott Dorsey

2008-09-13 15:48:31 UTC

Post by Ron(UK)
What I mean is, most users would not expect to have to replace an
expensive big name item of gear after a few years, yet something of the
standard of Behringer - which could pay for itself in maybe one gig -
may be expected to last a corespondingly shorter length of time.
Obviously the complexity of the item pays a large part in the equation,
as does the quality of components, build etc.

See, in the PC world, people expect to replace their computer every three
or five years. That's an expected normal cost of doing business, and the
manufacturers don't build the hardware to be rugged because there's no need
for it to last longer than that. The life cycle of the technology is so
short that people replace the stuff before it breaks anyway.

What you are seeing today is what happens when this attitude leaks out and
starts pouring into the pro audio industry. I personally find it shameful.

Post by Ron(UK)
A lot of the gear at 'my' venue is over 11 years old and still working.
EV P3000 amps, an A&H GL2000, some EV Deltamax, SX300s etc. some of it
has now been replaced as a matter of course but most of the original
install gear still works fine.

My console is more than thirty years old and it works and sounds just fine.
Likewise the Ampex, which is paid for. On the other hand, I also expect to
spend a considerable amount of time and money on maintenance and upkeep,
which the people on the three-year cycle don't budget for.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Eeyore

2008-09-13 20:33:38 UTC

The bugger is when it fails on you in the middle of a gig. And the spare in the
truck is dead out of the box too.

No financial saving is worth that.

Graham

hank alrich

2008-09-13 16:40:17 UTC

Post by George's ProSound Company
I don't see why I have about 40 of the deq's in service for years now and
had one fail, which was replaced overnight by Behringer

Unfortunately that has not been my own experience with DEQ2496's. It'll
be interesting to see if any of the units that have not yet failed make
the five year mark.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

George's ProSound Company

2008-09-13 18:37:05 UTC

Post by George's ProSound Company
I don't see why I have about 40 of the deq's in service for years now and
had one fail, which was replaced overnight by Behringer

Unfortunately that has not been my own experience with DEQ2496's. It'll
be interesting to see if any of the units that have not yet failed make
the five year mark.

I havehad 100% failure rate with my yamaha Ls9/32
doesnt turn me off to the product, just need to keep on top of it.
and I could buy 30 deq 2496's for the cost of a ls9

shit breaks, it's just the way it is
George

hank alrich

2008-09-13 19:00:40 UTC

Post by George's ProSound Company

Post by George's ProSound Company
I don't see why I have about 40 of the deq's in service for years now and
had one fail, which was replaced overnight by Behringer

Unfortunately that has not been my own experience with DEQ2496's. It'll
be interesting to see if any of the units that have not yet failed make
the five year mark.

My Drawmer DL241 cost twice the DEQ2496 and has now lasted over five
times as long. The AKG BX20 has twice the run of the Drawmer. I have
lots of stuff that has been working for decades. The only gear from
which I have significant failures in a single mfgr's partuclar model is
the Behringer DEQ2496. That's a fact of my own data, and needn't affect
yours. But for me the stuff I paid more for has turned out to be less
expensive over the long run.

Remember that I was an enthusiastic convert to and appreciator of the
performance of the DEQ2496, and of the tech support I received from Jim
Savery and crew. I said early-on that I'd have to wait and see how
they've held up. The answer is "not so admirably".

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

George's ProSound Company

2008-09-13 19:18:04 UTC

Post by George's ProSound Company
I don't see why I have about 40 of the deq's in service for years now and
had one fail, which was replaced overnight by Behringer

Unfortunately that has not been my own experience with DEQ2496's. It'll
be interesting to see if any of the units that have not yet failed make
the five year mark.

I havehad 100% failure rate with my Yamaha Ls9/32
doesn't turn me off to the product, just need to keep on top of it.
and I could buy 30 deq 2496's for the cost of a ls9
shit breaks, it's just the way it is
George

I wish Icould say only one manufactures products fail
but the list of failed products is long and well known
and I would not point to drawmer or symetrix as item of merit
at least not the ones I owned

shit breaks

all of my soundcrafts broke with in the first year
my 840 did as well
symetrix/crest/crown were soooo bad I refuse to touch their stuff
I need to drive my my ls9 600 miles and stay in a hotel 3 days while its
being repaired, at my cost
22 days out of warrantee
I have BSS 900 series eq in my junk pile
there is no exclusivity to the list of failed gear
I WISH I had just one failed manufacturer
That would make life so simple

consider yourself blessed
George

Eeyore

2008-09-13 20:45:04 UTC

Post by George's ProSound Company

Post by George's ProSound Company
I don't see why I have about 40 of the deq's in service for years now and
had one fail, which was replaced overnight by Behringer

Unfortunately that has not been my own experience with DEQ2496's. It'll
be interesting to see if any of the units that have not yet failed make
the five year mark.

The only stuff the Horn has had break is Behringer, Midas Venice (similar design
concept) and speakers murdered by DJs. Mic stands and stuff of course, but
they're consumables.

Graham

Don Pearce

2008-09-13 13:21:07 UTC

George Gleason and Phildo REALLY aren't going to like hearing you say
things like that !

All gear is disposable, some just needs disposing of sooner than others
Ron

If you divide price by functionality (which you will need to estimate
numerically), you will arrive at a figure that tells you how long the
equipment needs to last to be worth buying. Halve the price, and you
halve the time.

d

Laurence Payne

2008-09-13 13:25:23 UTC

Post by Don Pearce
If you divide price by functionality (which you will need to estimate
numerically), you will arrive at a figure that tells you how long the
equipment needs to last to be worth buying. Halve the price, and you
halve the time.

That's assuming the installation is trivial - send the client a new
one, tell him to slot it in. Gear can be so cheap now that delivery
and installation become the main cost.

George's ProSound Company

2008-09-13 13:30:10 UTC

Gear can be so cheap now that delivery

Post by Laurence Payne
and installation become the main cost.

and your primairy profit center.
anyone can shop a piece of gear on line and get near dealer costs
nobody can shop my service
it is what I say it is
George

Ron(UK)

2008-09-13 13:55:17 UTC

Post by Laurence Payne
Gear can be so cheap now that delivery

Post by Laurence Payne
and installation become the main cost.

and your primairy profit center.
anyone can shop a piece of gear on line and get near dealer costs
nobody can shop my service
it is what I say it is

When I sell gear, I sell it at MY price, if the customer claims he can
buy it much cheaper elsewhere, I tell him to bugger off and buy it there
then.

Just don`t bring it to me when it breaks!

Ron

George's ProSound Company

2008-09-13 18:31:47 UTC

Post by Laurence Payne
Gear can be so cheap now that delivery

Post by Laurence Payne
and installation become the main cost.

and your primairy profit center.
anyone can shop a piece of gear on line and get near dealer costs
nobody can shop my service
it is what I say it is

When I sell gear, I sell it at MY price, if the customer claims he can buy
it much cheaper elsewhere, I tell him to bugger off and buy it there then.
Just don`t bring it to me when it breaks!
Ron

there is more than one way to make money in this world
I have a million dollar bar of soap

you say who would buy a bar of soap for a million dollars

I say I don't know, but I only have to sell one of them
George

Don Pearce

2008-09-13 13:31:37 UTC

That's assuming the installation is trivial - send the client a new
one, tell him to slot it in. Gear can be so cheap now that delivery
and installation become the main cost.

Provided the original installation is sensible, like-for-like
replacement is usually very easy.

d

George's ProSound Company

2008-09-13 13:36:43 UTC

That's assuming the installation is trivial - send the client a new
one, tell him to slot it in. Gear can be so cheap now that delivery
and installation become the main cost.

Provided the original installation is sensible, like-for-like replacement
is usually very easy.
d

very easy for people that handle gear on a regular basis
it's like rocket science to a office manager who doesn't even know how to
open the rack

if you don't want to do free calls , install it yourself and charge for your
time
george

Mickey

2008-09-13 14:09:07 UTC

That's assuming the installation is trivial - send the client a new
one, tell him to slot it in. Gear can be so cheap now that delivery
and installation become the main cost.

Provided the original installation is sensible, like-for-like replacement
is usually very easy.
d

very easy for people that handle gear on a regular basis it's like
rocket science to a office manager who doesn't even know how to open
the rack
if you don't want to do free calls , install it yourself and charge
for your time

The secret of how I make my (non-audio) living. There are zillions
of people who will pay top dollar for friendly, competent, and
reliable service. I have clients who have been mine since 1996 and
changed companies twice to follow me.

--
Mickey
Few blame themselves until they have exhausted all other possibilities.
-- anonymous

Eeyore

2008-09-13 20:31:20 UTC

That's assuming the installation is trivial - send the client a new
one, tell him to slot it in. Gear can be so cheap now that delivery
and installation become the main cost.

Not to mention competent installation.

Did you hear I found 40 or so XLRs wired with the screen to pin 2 when the
licensee decided he was an audio expert ?

The amazing thing was that because it was all run balanced it only hummed
'sometimes'.

Graham

Phildo

2008-09-13 15:20:02 UTC

George Gleason and Phildo REALLY aren't going to like hearing you say
things like that !

Was probably installer error, lack of proper ventilation etc.

Phildo

hank alrich

2008-09-13 16:40:18 UTC

George Gleason and Phildo REALLY aren't going to like hearing you say
things like that !

Was probably installer error, lack of proper ventilation etc.

Easy to say and obviously unsubstantiated.

Counting my own and what I've installed here and in Austin, I've had 3
of 7 DEQ2496's go down, in three years. The first one was under
warranty. I'll becontacting their tech support to see if there is
anything we can do about the two unusable ones I now have on hand. One
no longer accepts analog input. I opened it and exercised connectors,
but nada. The other one no longer has a noise floor; it offers a noise
ceiling.

The are remarkably powerful for what they cost, but I don't take well to
throwaway concepts. None of this is attributable to lack of ventilation,
etc. This is under very easy physical working conditions.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

Eeyore

2008-09-13 20:42:44 UTC

George Gleason and Phildo REALLY aren't going to like hearing you say
things like that !

Was probably installer error, lack of proper ventilation etc.

Easy to say and obviously unsubstantiated.

Well it was Phildo !

Post by hank alrich
Counting my own and what I've installed here and in Austin, I've had 3
of 7 DEQ2496's go down, in three years. The first one was under
warranty. I'll becontacting their tech support to see if there is
anything we can do about the two unusable ones I now have on hand. One
no longer accepts analog input. I opened it and exercised connectors,
but nada. The other one no longer has a noise floor; it offers a noise
ceiling.
The are remarkably powerful for what they cost, but I don't take well to
throwaway concepts. None of this is attributable to lack of ventilation,
etc. This is under very easy physical working conditions.

Hence the Horn's no new Behringer policy. Might have something to do with
riders as well.

Graham

Eeyore

2008-09-13 20:37:19 UTC

George Gleason and Phildo REALLY aren't going to like hearing you say
things like that !

Was probably installer error, lack of proper ventilation etc.

For a LOW POWER piece of kit ?

Graham

Sander

2008-09-15 16:12:36 UTC

Post by Ron Capik
Anyway, I'm wondering if folks have noted any similar (or other)
non-bathtub curve failures with these units?

I've got 2 of them and they both turned out to be utterly unreliable.
They do work most of the time but regularly cut out at the worst
possible moments.

The first one intermittently crashed and would completely lock up, not
passing any sound at all. (it did show some error on the display)
Sometimes it would run fine for hours or even days, then it could happen
several times in a row. The only way to recover was to power down and
back up. It seemed fine just powered on but when actually passing audio
the fault was more frequent.

I sent it in for warranty repair. It came back "repaired".
It still has the same fault.
Just now when it hangs it reboots itself so it only cuts the sound for a
couple of seconds max.

I decided to give Behringer another chance and bought a second one
hoping that one would be okay.
It too has a fault. Works okay most of the time but sometimes suddenly
starts popping and clicking and flickering the display (PSU issue?)

They're fine units when they work but I found them both way too
unreliable to use in any live rig and gave up on them.

I still do use some of the small mixers and they do what they do well
enough considering the price, haven't had any issues with them.

Sander

i***@gmail.com

2015-11-02 14:14:49 UTC

Interested to see your overheating problem. I have several of these 2496 and two died suddenly after a couple of years. Found that of the 4 that I have the two that died had glue on the power supply regulator which has run over from the ribbon cable. As far as I can see the glue is acting as an insulator and although it didn't fail early in life it's causing shut down problems now. A sharp knife cutting the glue away appears to have solved the problem. Looks like the glue and ribbon cable filter are an afterthought from a design perspective and looks like a late design add-on. Hope this helps others.

geoff

2015-11-02 21:53:03 UTC

Only problem I had was bad contacts on the bypass relays (replaced relays).

Will check for excess support-glue near reg (etc) - thanks for the
heads-up !

geoff

s***@gmail.com

2018-08-29 19:22:50 UTC

Post by geoff
Only problem I had was bad contacts on the bypass relays (replaced relays).

Hi Geoff,

I don't suppose you still have a record of the brand and part numbers for the relays and information on where you ordered them from ? Were your replacements an exact fit for the PCB ?

The right channel bypass relay on mine has been slightly intermittent for nearly 10 years now.

Occasionally the signal level in the right channel in processor enabled mode is anywhere from 1/2 to 3dB below the other channel, while bypass mode is always OK.

Usually flicking bypass mode in and out a few times to toggle the relay gets it working correctly again,lasting a few weeks but recently it has deteriorated a lot more so I can't put off fixing it any longer.

Any help appreciated. As for other faults, I've had my unit since 2003 (an early version 1 unit) and the only other fault I've had is the power supply blew up when it was about 3 years old - and this was traced to a loose screw that had somehow been underneath the power supply PCB, possibly from new!

It took out a couple of the diodes and possibly a transistor from memory. I managed to repair it without any circuit diagram which is fortunate because there doesn't seem to be one available.

So for 15 years of near daily use on my home stereo I think a power supply fault caused by a rogue screw and an intermittent connection in one of the bypass relays is not too bad really given how cheap these were.

I have found some bugs in the firmware but as mine can only go up to firmware 1.4 and has not had further updates for over 10 years I'm stuck with them but know how to work around them...overall I'm still very happy with the unit for what I use it for.

Regards,
Simon

geoff

2018-08-29 20:51:16 UTC

Post by s***@gmail.com

Post by geoff
Only problem I had was bad contacts on the bypass relays (replaced relays).

Sorry the order details long gone on an old PC.

But what I did at the time was pull it out, remove the relay, and find
another with the same operating voltage, pin-out, and physical dimensions.

I don't know about where you are, but here I use RS Components or
Element14, which have search tools that enable one to filter down to a
successful match by brand/type/voltage/dimensions/etc, or sometimes
even the same device as the original.

cheers

geoff

s***@gmail.com

2018-08-29 21:54:52 UTC

Post by geoff
Sorry the order details long gone on an old PC.
But what I did at the time was pull it out, remove the relay, and find
another with the same operating voltage, pin-out, and physical dimensions.
I don't know about where you are, but here I use RS Components or
Element14, which have search tools that enable one to filter down to a
successful match by brand/type/voltage/dimensions/etc, or sometimes
even the same device as the original.
cheers
geoff

Hi Geoff,

Thanks for the reply! That's exactly what I ended up doing soon after posting my message.

I found the original was a Belstar BT-5S, and that it's obsolete / very hard to come by unless you want to order in bulk from Russia!

I managed to find a datasheet though and after looking through the Farnell catalogue I've ordered the TE Connectivity MT2-C93401.

https://uk.farnell.com/te-connectivity/mt2-c93401/relay-signal-dpdt-250vac-220vdc/dp/9913645

It seems to fit the specs exactly right down to the coil resistance and current however hopefully it's a bit more reliable than the originals which have been playing up intermittently for over 10 years! It's a shame for an otherwise good unit to be spoiled by cheap relays so I'm looking forward to fixing it properly.

Regards,
Simon

geoff

2018-08-29 22:55:52 UTC

Post by s***@gmail.com

Hi Geoff,
Thanks for the reply! That's exactly what I ended up doing soon after posting my message.
I found the original was a Belstar BT-5S, and that it's obsolete / very hard to come by unless you want to order in bulk from Russia!
I managed to find a datasheet though and after looking through the Farnell catalogue I've ordered the TE Connectivity MT2-C93401.
https://uk.farnell.com/te-connectivity/mt2-c93401/relay-signal-dpdt-250vac-220vdc/dp/9913645
It seems to fit the specs exactly right down to the coil resistance and current however hopefully it's a bit more reliable than the originals which have been playing up intermittently for over 10 years! It's a shame for an otherwise good unit to be spoiled by cheap relays so I'm looking forward to fixing it properly.
Regards,
Simon

Yep, the coil voltage/resistance (= operating current) is important wrt
the devices attempting to drive the relay !

Do replace all relays at the same time !

And FWIW , oddly Farnell changed their name to Element14 here a few
years ago. No idea why .....

cheers

geoff

Ron C

2018-08-30 00:32:37 UTC

Post by geoff

Post by s***@gmail.com

Hi Geoff,
Thanks for the reply! That's exactly what I ended up doing soon after posting my message.
I found the original was a Belstar BT-5S, and that it's obsolete /
very hard to come by unless you want to order in bulk from Russia!
I managed to find a datasheet though and after looking through the
Farnell catalogue I've ordered the TE Connectivity MT2-C93401.
https://uk.farnell.com/te-connectivity/mt2-c93401/relay-signal-dpdt-250vac-220vdc/dp/9913645
It seems to fit the specs exactly right down to the coil resistance
and current however hopefully it's a bit more reliable than the
originals which have been playing up intermittently for over 10 years!
It's a shame for an otherwise good unit to be spoiled by cheap relays
so I'm looking forward to fixing it properly.
Regards,
Simon

Yep, the coil voltage/resistance (= operating current) is important wrt
the devices attempting to drive the relay !
Do replace all relays at the same time !
And FWIW , oddly Farnell changed their name to Element14 here a few
years ago. No idea why .....
cheers
geoff

Re the name change see:
< https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newark_element14#History >

I've been retired for quite some time, but "back in the day"
Newark was the go to place for much of my electronics
needs .. stuff I couldn't find in the company stock room.

--
==
Later...
Ron Capik
--

IveTechMedia

2015-11-02 14:20:47 UTC

Interested to see your overheating problem. I have several of these DEQ 2496 and two died suddenly after a couple of years. Found that of the 4 that I have the two that died had glue on the power supply regulator which has run over from the ribbon cable. As far as I can see the glue is acting as an insulator and although it didn't fail early in life it's causing shut down problems now. A sharp knife cutting the glue away appears to have solved the problem. Looks like the glue and ribbon cable filter are an afterthought from a design perspective and looks like a late design add-on. Hope this helps others.

geoff

2015-11-02 21:59:35 UTC