Discussion:
Studiomaster Mains Transformer
(too old to reply)
kerie thomas
2015-03-12 12:05:48 UTC
Permalink
Hi guys

I have a problem with a Studiomaster Powerhouse Horizon 1208.

Unfortunately, the mains transformer has given up on me and I am struggling to find a replacement or any information on the output ratings.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Kerie
Phil Allison
2015-03-13 12:22:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by kerie thomas
I have a problem with a Studiomaster Powerhouse Horizon 1208.
Unfortunately, the mains transformer has given up on me
and I am struggling to find a replacement or any information
on the output ratings.
** Transformers are "spare parts" and you normally buy them from the manufacturer - have you emailed Studiomaster yet ?

Also, what makes you so sure the transformer IS burnt out ??

Failures in large toroidal types is VERY rare.

FYI:

I am a professional audio service tech with over 40 years experience.

Toroidal mains transformers are one of my favourite topics.




... Phil
Les Cargill
2015-03-13 12:51:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Allison
Post by kerie thomas
I have a problem with a Studiomaster Powerhouse Horizon 1208.
Unfortunately, the mains transformer has given up on me
and I am struggling to find a replacement or any information
on the output ratings.
** Transformers are "spare parts" and you normally buy them from the manufacturer - have you emailed Studiomaster yet ?
Also, what makes you so sure the transformer IS burnt out ??
Failures in large toroidal types is VERY rare.
Behringer managed to make it commonplace in the ADA8000 by not cooling
things well...
Post by Phil Allison
I am a professional audio service tech with over 40 years experience.
Toroidal mains transformers are one of my favourite topics.
... Phil
--
Les Cargill
Phil Allison
2015-03-14 01:06:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Les Cargill
Post by Phil Allison
** Transformers are "spare parts" and you normally buy them
from the manufacturer - have you emailed Studiomaster yet ?
Also, what makes you so sure the transformer IS burnt out ??
Failures in large toroidal types is VERY rare.
Behringer managed to make it commonplace in the ADA8000 by not cooling
things well...
** The ADA8000 has a tiny toroidal transformer - about 25VA.

The Studiomaster has a large one - about 1000VA.

Wot a boring, stupid troll you are.



... Phil
Post by Les Cargill
Post by Phil Allison
I am a professional audio service tech with over 40 years experience.
Toroidal mains transformers are one of my favourite topics.
... Phil
--
Les Cargill
Les Cargill
2015-03-14 03:50:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Allison
Post by Les Cargill
Post by Phil Allison
** Transformers are "spare parts" and you normally buy them
from the manufacturer - have you emailed Studiomaster yet ?
Also, what makes you so sure the transformer IS burnt out ??
Failures in large toroidal types is VERY rare.
Behringer managed to make it commonplace in the ADA8000 by not cooling
things well...
** The ADA8000 has a tiny toroidal transformer - about 25VA.
Yes, because it's all small signal handling stuff. It's 8x line level on
the output. Why the fs*k would you need more than 25 VA for
that?

Listen: The ADA8000 dies because there is inadequate heat management.
Pretty much full stop. Google away, the stories are legion.
Post by Phil Allison
The Studiomaster has a large one - about 1000VA.
Wot a boring, stupid troll you are.
You don't listen very well.
--
Les Cargill
Phil Allison
2015-03-14 05:25:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Les Cargill
Post by Phil Allison
Post by Les Cargill
Post by Phil Allison
** Transformers are "spare parts" and you normally buy them
from the manufacturer - have you emailed Studiomaster yet ?
Also, what makes you so sure the transformer IS burnt out ??
Failures in large toroidal types is VERY rare.
Behringer managed to make it commonplace in the ADA8000 by not cooling
things well...
** The ADA8000 has a tiny toroidal transformer - about 25VA.
Yes, because it's all small signal handling stuff. It's 8x line level on
the output. Why the fs*k would you need more than 25 VA for
that?
** You must be on illegal drugs, you are so demented.
Post by Les Cargill
Post by Phil Allison
The Studiomaster has a large one - about 1000VA.
Wot a boring, stupid troll you are.
You don't listen very well.
** Listing to a raving nutter like YOU is something I will never do.

Calling you a boring, stupid troll was too kindly.



.... Phil
Post by Les Cargill
--
Les Cargill
t***@gmail.com
2015-03-18 13:23:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Les Cargill
Post by Phil Allison
Post by Les Cargill
Post by Phil Allison
** Transformers are "spare parts" and you normally buy them
from the manufacturer - have you emailed Studiomaster yet ?
Also, what makes you so sure the transformer IS burnt out ??
Failures in large toroidal types is VERY rare.
Behringer managed to make it commonplace in the ADA8000 by not cooling
things well...
** The ADA8000 has a tiny toroidal transformer - about 25VA.
Yes, because it's all small signal handling stuff. It's 8x line level on
the output. Why the fs*k would you need more than 25 VA for
that?
** You must be on illegal drugs, you are so demented.
Post by Les Cargill
Post by Phil Allison
The Studiomaster has a large one - about 1000VA.
Wot a boring, stupid troll you are.
You don't listen very well.
** Listing to a raving nutter like YOU is something I will never do.

Calling you a boring, stupid troll was too kindly.



....

Phil"


This ^^^ is part of the reason why Usenet is becoming a
cyber ghost-town! It's unmoderated, and people get
turned off by all the bullying & name calling.

You see a decrease in the frequency of otherwise fine
technical threads such as this one, and a sharp increase
in the amount of grub, such as Lawrence Welk being bald
or not!

Thank you Phil Allison, for contributing to and promoting
a hostile, negative Usenet experience, driving away useful
discourse, and for allowing the buildup of weeds(irrelevant
off-topic threads!) in the cracks in the Usenet sidewalks!

May God bless you.
geoff
2015-03-18 20:21:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@gmail.com
Thank you Phil Allison, for contributing to and promoting
a hostile, negative Usenet experience, driving away useful
discourse, and for allowing the buildup of weeds(irrelevant
off-topic threads!) in the cracks in the Usenet sidewalks!
May God bless you.
But which god ?

Clearly you are new to Phalluson. The rest of us are immune (comes from
shagging lots of sheep with pride). He is mostly technically 'on the
nail', but has a severe 'personality' disorder. We just live with it.

Apart from that, maybe people are just buying new ones now, rather than
getting technically into gear ;-(

geoff
Phil Allison
2015-03-18 23:31:26 UTC
Permalink
***@gmail.com wrote:


** FYI - you one collosal moron.

Les Cargill is a notorious usenet troll, a PITA and bloody idiot.

I think this is his first ever post on AAPLS and I sincerely hope it is his last too.

I supplied a perfect answer to the OP's question, on a subject I am quite expert on. He never bothered to come back or thank me, as is so often the case.

AAPLS has been a ghost town for several years, it used to be busy but was full of the vilest sort of halfwits, nutters and bullies you can imagine.

Don't think YOU have ever posted here before and you had better make this one your last as well.

It's brainless, know nothing fuckheads, just like YOU, that have ruined usenet.

Go straight to hell.



.... Phil
Les Cargill
2015-03-19 02:36:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Allison
** FYI - you one collosal moron.
Les Cargill is a notorious usenet troll, a PITA and bloody idiot.
You are absolutely hilarious.
Post by Phil Allison
I think this is his first ever post on AAPLS and I sincerely hope it is his last too.
I supplied a perfect answer to the OP's question, on a subject I am quite expert on. He never bothered to come back or thank me, as is so often the case.
AAPLS has been a ghost town for several years, it used to be busy but was full of the vilest sort of halfwits, nutters and bullies you can imagine.
Don't think YOU have ever posted here before and you had better make this one your last as well.
It's brainless, know nothing fuckheads, just like YOU, that have ruined usenet.
Go straight to hell.
.... Phil
--
Les Cargill
Ron C
2015-03-19 02:51:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Allison
** FYI - you one collosal moron.
Les Cargill is a notorious usenet troll, a PITA and bloody idiot.
I think this is his first ever post on AAPLS and I sincerely hope it is his last too.
I supplied a perfect answer to the OP's question, on a subject I am quite expert on. He never bothered to come back or thank me, as is so often the case.
AAPLS has been a ghost town for several years, it used to be busy but was full of the vilest sort of halfwits, nutters and bullies you can imagine.
Don't think YOU have ever posted here before and you had better make this one your last as well.
It's brainless, know nothing fuckheads, just like YOU, that have ruined usenet.
Go straight to hell.
.... Phil
I kind of miss the old days despite the halfwits, nutters and bullies.
I mostly lurked and learned back then. Picked up a lot of great tips
and techniques.
~~
Side note:
Great paper/article on speaker failure Phil!

==
Later...
Ron C
--
Phil Allison
2015-03-19 05:13:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ron C
Post by Phil Allison
AAPLS has been a ghost town for several years,
it used to be busy but was full of the vilest
sort of halfwits, nutters and bullies you can imagine.
I kind of miss the old days despite the halfwits, nutters and bullies.
I mostly lurked and learned back then. Picked up a lot of great tips
and techniques.
~~
Great paper/article on speaker failure Phil!
** Thanks, I took I a bit of time over that.

http://sound.westhost.com/articles/speaker-failure.html

FYI:

I am seeing a odd kind of speaker damage a lot lately - where the terminal board for a speaker has come loose or been torn loose from the frame.

Only in guitar amps and mainly with Emminence 12inch speakers where the aluminium rivet collapses.

Some I can fix but others have feed wires torn from the cone itself and that is curtains.


.... Phil








... Phil
Rupert
2015-03-21 03:51:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Allison
Post by Ron C
Post by Phil Allison
AAPLS has been a ghost town for several years,
it used to be busy but was full of the vilest
sort of halfwits, nutters and bullies you can imagine.
I kind of miss the old days despite the halfwits, nutters and bullies.
I mostly lurked and learned back then. Picked up a lot of great tips
and techniques.
~~
Great paper/article on speaker failure Phil!
** Thanks, I took I a bit of time over that.
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/speaker-failure.html
I am seeing a odd kind of speaker damage a lot lately - where the terminal board for a speaker has come loose or been torn loose from the frame.
Only in guitar amps and mainly with Emminence 12inch speakers where the aluminium rivet collapses.
Some I can fix but others have feed wires torn from the cone itself and that is curtains.
.... Phil
I've referred several folks to that excellent article. As far as Emminence drivers, I've never been a fan. They've always seem cheaply constructed, at least their revered guitar speakers. That said, I recently had a push button terminal fly apart on an EVX-180B driver just under it's own spring pressure, so I guess even the better built ones aren't immune to issues.
None
2015-03-19 23:30:16 UTC
Permalink
<snip pathetic whingeing>
If if bothers you so much, you could just fuck off out of here instead
of whimpering. Nobody would even miss a skidmark like you.
Ron C
2015-03-20 00:04:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by None
<snip pathetic whingeing>
If if bothers you so much, you could just fuck off out of here instead
of whimpering. Nobody would even miss a skidmark like you.
Is there not an admonition to /let lying dogs sleep/ and to not
/stick pokes Into the monkey cage/ ...um, ...or some such?
8-)

==
Later...
[Zen masher] Ron
--
geoff
2015-03-20 10:59:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ron C
Post by None
<snip pathetic whingeing>
If if bothers you so much, you could just fuck off out of here instead
of whimpering. Nobody would even miss a skidmark like you.
Is there not an admonition to /let lying dogs sleep/ and to not
/stick pokes Into the monkey cage/ ...um, ...or some such?
8-)
I'm not poking my stick into any animal cage !

geoff
p***@hotmail.com
2016-03-18 04:00:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by kerie thomas
Hi guys
I have a problem with a Studiomaster Powerhouse Horizon 1208.
Unfortunately, the mains transformer has given up on me and I am struggling to find a replacement or any information on the output ratings.
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Kerie
A bit late for a reply now but you never know. I was Studiomaster's Senior Design Engineer then and specified the transformer. It was made by Toroid International, now part of NORATEL, who kept the red hedgehog trademark that originated with the former company Transduktor. See http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Transduktor&view=detailv2&qpvt=Transduktor&id=7B6A3572E4FD1851F90F0F687D047CFD5414D303&selectedIndex=2&ccid=bGnD0hwP&simid=608034758628868276&thid=OIP.M6c69c3d21c0ffc6122cbf8e142e13861o0&ajaxhist=0 for an example.

The transformer was a HIGHLY refined design between myself and Borje Holmgren (then Managing Director at Toroid International). It has multiple windings and taps and can only be replaced with same.

As mentioned by others, How are you SURE that the transformer is at fault ? If it blows the mains fuse or has destroyed the inrush current limiter, then it IS likely at fault.

I've recently been in touch with NORATEL UK about another power amp toroid and the technical guy there is very helpful. The label on your transformer should have a TI-xxxxx type part number or the Studiomaster TX xxxxx equivalent. I'm sure that if there's any possibility they have some that were unsold, they would help you out. However Prosound of India continued making Studiomaster designs after the demise of that era and probably exhausted any stock. It's *possible* that they still have the design in their records. If so, they could certainly make one as if a 'one-off prototype' but it'll cost dearly.

Expect no help from the current Studiomaster as they were bought by a Chinese company. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studiomaster, an article I originated but it's a lie now. Look at the edit history.

Regards, Graham - I'd give you a proper contact address but since Phalluson is here, I won't. Other AAPLS members may be able to help you there or some From sci.electronics.design . Mention my 'nym Pooh Bear or Eeyore

I hope you found the 1208 to your liking btw.
geoff
2016-03-18 11:37:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
A bit late for a reply now but you never know. I was Studiomaster's
Senior Design Engineer then and specified the transformer. It was
made by Toroid International, now part of NORATEL, who kept the red
hedgehog trademark that originated with the former company
Transduktor.
I did have a bunch of ones scavenged from blown Studiomaster amps and
mixer-amps. However a few years ago I decided there was no use for
them so they went to the scrap merchant.

geoff

PS - what was it that caused all those amps to vapourise (PCB tracks and
semiconductors. The theory here was that the factory in India was using
counterfeit components....
p***@hotmail.com
2016-03-18 17:29:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by geoff
Post by p***@hotmail.com
A bit late for a reply now but you never know. I was Studiomaster's
Senior Design Engineer then and specified the transformer. It was
made by Toroid International, now part of NORATEL, who kept the red
hedgehog trademark that originated with the former company
Transduktor.
I did have a bunch of ones scavenged from blown Studiomaster amps and
mixer-amps. However a few years ago I decided there was no use for
them so they went to the scrap merchant.
geoff
PS - what was it that caused all those amps to vapourise (PCB tracks and
semiconductors. The theory here was that the factory in India was using
counterfeit components....
That hopeless factory in India (you wouldn't believe what shenanigans they got up to that we discovered) did indeed used some counterfeit components in the output stage. We spotted the problem in the UK too. Sawing the lid off the TO-3 can, there were 2 small chips wired in parallel. The transistors were marked as made by MOSPEC, which is indeed a genuine semiconductor company, second sourcing various devices. Their data sheets for the MJ 15003 & 15004 were basically photocopies of the original Motorola ones. I suspect the counterfeiters chose MOSPEC to 'copy' as they were less well known.

Aside from that, the Studiomaster BOM *explicitly* stated that Motorola/On-Semi parts were to be used ONLY, so they were deliberately cutting corners. We insisted that they throw away the remainder of the batch or negotiate a refund from their supplier.

On top of this, I was for ages puzzled why the full power THD of the 350W amp module rose from 0,007% @ 1kHz (utterly reproducible) to 0.01% when transferred to India. It finally turned out that they were using 1/2 oz (17 um) copper clad pcb's ! Hardly any surprise about vapourising tracks.

I'm only touching the surface of what they got up to. Basically, they destroyed Studiomaster's good name. In the end they also withdrew credit facilities and that version of Studiomaster had to cease trading. I recall the Managing Director bemoaning the fact that he'd lost a million pounds, yet is was *his* idea to transfer all production to India because Prosound's MD made himself out to be a 'mate' of his.

In one of his more lucid moments, our 'R&D Manager' apparently overheard Prosound's M.D. stating that he would one day 'own' Studiomaster. He did indeed continue to use our name and manufacture our products for other companies and even introduced crap new products like radio mics designed for classic 'P.A.' use that were hopeless under the Studiomaster name in the Indian market. We actually got an enquiry about one of those mics in the UK and had to tell the owner that it was nothing to do with us.

There's plenty more I could tell, I assure you. I'm rarely roused to anger but Prosound's Manufacturing Manager got a full-on dressing down from me once after Borje from Toroid and I met up in Mumbai to look at a transformer issue ourselves. We asked for an amplifier to be set up in a certain way with a variac etc. On return from lunch, NOTHING had been done at all. Borje even swore under his breath, threatened to stop supplying Prosound and I gave the manager a good yelling at. This is something that clearly normally doesn't happen in India, since when I was finished and shaking with anger, I noticed that the entire R&D - lol - staff were standing still as if stunned with their mouths open.

Moral of this story, DON'T outsource when those making the decisions don't know what they're doing, as was the case here. In comparison, we found both excellent and slightly dodgy (the one that make some Yamaha stuff) companies in China.

Graham
p***@hotmail.com
2016-03-18 19:51:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by geoff
Post by p***@hotmail.com
A bit late for a reply now but you never know. I was Studiomaster's
Senior Design Engineer then and specified the transformer. It was
made by Toroid International, now part of NORATEL, who kept the red
hedgehog trademark that originated with the former company
Transduktor.
I did have a bunch of ones scavenged from blown Studiomaster amps and
mixer-amps. However a few years ago I decided there was no use for
them so they went to the scrap merchant.
geoff
PS - what was it that caused all those amps to vapourise (PCB tracks and
semiconductors. The theory here was that the factory in India was using
counterfeit components....
That hopeless factory in India (you wouldn't believe what shenanigans they got up to that we discovered) did indeed used some counterfeit components in the output stage. We spotted the problem in the UK too. Sawing the lid off the TO-3 can, there were 2 small chips wired in parallel. The transistors were marked as made by MOSPEC, which is indeed a genuine semiconductor company, second sourcing various devices. Their data sheets for the MJ 15003 & 15004 were basically photocopies of the original Motorola ones. I suspect the counterfeiters chose MOSPEC to 'copy' as they were less well known.
Talking about this has seriously tempted me to write the TRUE Story of Studiomaster to be subtitled: An Objective Lesson in how NOT to RUN a Company !

Graham
Phil Allison
2016-03-19 13:35:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
That hopeless factory in India (you wouldn't believe what shenanigans they got up to that we discovered) did indeed used some counterfeit components in the output stage. We spotted the problem in the UK too. Sawing the lid off the TO-3 can, there were 2 small chips wired in parallel. The transistors were marked as made by MOSPEC, which is indeed a genuine semiconductor company, second sourcing various devices. Their data sheets for the MJ 15003 & 15004 were basically photocopies of the original Motorola ones. I suspect the counterfeiters chose MOSPEC to 'copy' as they were less well known.
** Look just like the examples in the first pic here ??

http://sound.westhost.com/fake/counterfeit-p1.htm




..... Phil
p***@hotmail.com
2016-03-20 06:09:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Allison
Post by p***@hotmail.com
That hopeless factory in India (you wouldn't believe what shenanigans they got up to that we discovered) did indeed used some counterfeit components in the output stage. We spotted the problem in the UK too. Sawing the lid off the TO-3 can, there were 2 small chips wired in parallel. The transistors were marked as made by MOSPEC, which is indeed a genuine semiconductor company, second sourcing various devices. Their data sheets for the MJ 15003 & 15004 were basically photocopies of the original Motorola ones. I suspect the counterfeiters chose MOSPEC to 'copy' as they were less well known.
** Look just like the examples in the first pic here ??
http://sound.westhost.com/fake/counterfeit-p1.htm
..... Phil
Very similar, although it was an all steel case rather than one using an aluminium lid.
I have in fact only ever seen All aluminium (alloy), i.e. including the mounting flange, cases from Motorola, never a mix of metals. The other difference was the use of the MOSPEC brand name. Thanks for your work on counterfeits. I note that most genuine ICs now have laser etched markings. More difficult to read but much more difficult to counterfeit.


Graham
Phil Allison
2016-03-20 12:11:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Phil Allison
** Look just like the examples in the first pic here ??
http://sound.westhost.com/fake/counterfeit-p1.htm
Very similar, although it was an all steel case rather than one using an aluminium lid.
** The two pics show an " MJ15003 MEX190 9H34" in an all steel TO3 package.

I took the pics and sent them to Rod Elliot.

FYI:

" MEX190 " is a typo of " MEXICO"

" 9H34 " is a typo of date code "9834"

I guess the inked on labelling they tried to copy was a bit worn out.
Post by p***@hotmail.com
I have in fact only ever seen All aluminium (alloy),
i.e. including the mounting flange, cases from Motorola,
never a mix of metals.
** In fact, Motorola stopped using "alumimum" TO3 packs in the early 1980s.


.... Phil

Phil Allison
2016-03-19 14:01:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
As mentioned by others, How are you SURE that the transformer is at
fault ?
If it blows the mains fuse or has destroyed the inrush current limiter,
then it IS likely at fault.
** Is the toroidal by any chance a " dual primary " type ?

Some of these have a habit of failing dead short when used in the 240V mode.

Most makers like to wind the two primaries "bi-filar" - so when connected in series placing 120VAC between adjacent wires over the entire length.

A very poor practice that leads to many early failures.

If combined with using strips of cloth tape instead of moulded plastic end caps to cover the sharp edges of the core - you can bet on seeing lotsa shorts.

This is how it is done in some really shitty toroidals fitted to recent Crown XLS series amps made in China.



... Phil
p***@hotmail.com
2016-03-19 23:12:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Allison
Post by p***@hotmail.com
As mentioned by others, How are you SURE that the transformer is at
fault ?
If it blows the mains fuse or has destroyed the inrush current limiter,
then it IS likely at fault.
** Is the toroidal by any chance a " dual primary " type ?
Some of these have a habit of failing dead short when used in the 240V mode.
Most makers like to wind the two primaries "bi-filar" - so when connected in series placing 120VAC between adjacent wires over the entire length.
A very poor practice that leads to many early failures.
If combined with using strips of cloth tape instead of moulded plastic end caps to cover the sharp edges of the core - you can bet on seeing lotsa shorts.
This is how it is done in some really shitty toroidals fitted to recent Crown XLS series amps made in China.
... Phil
I'm fairly certain from memory that it may indeed be 'dual primary'. You're quite right about the end caps issue but I've only known one manufacturer for sure to do something similar, which was to 'shrink wrap' the entire core in polypropylene. Unfortunately this disrupts the coupling and the stray field is greater. They made transformers for Krell at one time and to help solve the problem, we did indeed have the Krell can fitted, as it was a perfect fit but still needed a steel screen added over some signal processing electronics to reduce the 'hum level' to specification.

Graham
Phil Allison
2016-03-20 02:48:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Phil Allison
** Is the toroidal by any chance a " dual primary " type ?
Some of these have a habit of failing dead short when used in the 240V mode.
Most makers like to wind the two primaries "bi-filar" - so when
connected in series placing 120VAC between adjacent wires over the
entire length.
A very poor practice that leads to many early failures.
If combined with using strips of cloth tape instead of moulded
plastic end caps to cover the sharp edges of the core - you can
bet on seeing lotsa shorts.
This is how it is done in some really shitty toroidals fitted to
recent Crown XLS series amps made in China.
I'm fairly certain from memory that it may indeed be 'dual primary'.
You're quite right about the end caps issue but I've only known one
manufacturer for sure to do something similar, which was to 'shrink wrap'
the entire core in polypropylene.
** The Chinese maker of the toroidals used in the Crown XLS602 could not use moulded end caps because the core was not round - the outside diameter varied by about 4mm. How come?

Because it was made from scrap lengths of steel, about 20 pieces of differing lengths welded together to make a long enough strip. The pieces varied in width too, by a mm or so. Likely these pieces were extracted from off cuts, matched up for width by hand, spot welded end to end and wound onto a spindle until the diameter was about right.

Then the sharp edges were rounded with a hand grinder and cloth tape applied along the length. The polyester wrapping and winding appears to be done by machine, with primaries and secondaries all wound bi-filar.

After disassembly, I found several burnt and shorted turns in the primary, close to the outer edge on the core.

You might suspect that a toroidal core with so many discontinuities would have a high magnetising current - but such was not the case.

FYI:

The Crown XLS602 is near identical to the British made C-Audio GB602.

AFAIK Crown acquired the design, reworked it a little and then had it produced in China.


.... Phil
p***@hotmail.com
2016-03-20 06:21:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Allison
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Phil Allison
** Is the toroidal by any chance a " dual primary " type ?
Some of these have a habit of failing dead short when used in the 240V mode.
Most makers like to wind the two primaries "bi-filar" - so when
connected in series placing 120VAC between adjacent wires over the
entire length.
A very poor practice that leads to many early failures.
If combined with using strips of cloth tape instead of moulded
plastic end caps to cover the sharp edges of the core - you can
bet on seeing lotsa shorts.
This is how it is done in some really shitty toroidals fitted to
recent Crown XLS series amps made in China.
I'm fairly certain from memory that it may indeed be 'dual primary'.
You're quite right about the end caps issue but I've only known one
manufacturer for sure to do something similar, which was to 'shrink wrap'
the entire core in polypropylene.
** The Chinese maker of the toroidals used in the Crown XLS602 could not use moulded end caps because the core was not round - the outside diameter varied by about 4mm. How come?
Because it was made from scrap lengths of steel, about 20 pieces of differing lengths welded together to make a long enough strip. The pieces varied in width too, by a mm or so. Likely these pieces were extracted from off cuts, matched up for width by hand, spot welded end to end and wound onto a spindle until the diameter was about right.
Then the sharp edges were rounded with a hand grinder and cloth tape applied along the length. The polyester wrapping and winding appears to be done by machine, with primaries and secondaries all wound bi-filar.
After disassembly, I found several burnt and shorted turns in the primary, close to the outer edge on the core.
You might suspect that a toroidal core with so many discontinuities would have a high magnetising current - but such was not the case.
The Crown XLS602 is near identical to the British made C-Audio GB602.
AFAIK Crown acquired the design, reworked it a little and then had it produced in China.
.... Phil
I know that model and its history well. I suspect that the large number of effective air gaps in the core kept that magnetising current low. I could tell you a few stories about that design and how it came to be, quite amusing actually, but will have to wait for the morning.

Graham
Phil Allison
2016-03-20 07:37:43 UTC
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Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Phil Allison
** The Chinese maker of the toroidals used in the Crown XLS602 could not use moulded end caps because the core was not round - the outside diameter varied by about 4mm. How come?
Because it was made from scrap lengths of steel, about 20 pieces of differing lengths welded together to make a long enough strip. The pieces varied in width too, by a mm or so. Likely these pieces were extracted from off cuts, matched up for width by hand, spot welded end to end and wound onto a spindle until the diameter was about right.
Then the sharp edges were rounded with a hand grinder and cloth tape applied along the length. The polyester wrapping and winding appears to be done by machine, with primaries and secondaries all wound bi-filar.
After disassembly, I found several burnt and shorted turns in the primary, close to the outer edge on the core.
You might suspect that a toroidal core with so many discontinuities would have a high magnetising current - but such was not the case.
The Crown XLS602 is near identical to the British made C-Audio GB602.
AFAIK Crown acquired the design, reworked it a little and then had it produced in China.
I know that model and its history well.
** Got more than a chance resemblance to a Studiomaster model ??


FYI:

schem of the Crown XLS602.

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** internal pic

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=crown+xls+602&biw=1152&bih=716&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi_j8PU3M7LAhXBHZQKHZyjBV0Q_AUIBygC#imgrc=U-2e4mnKdQrQzM%3A


** The effective use of output triples and rather small looking live heatsinks is neat.

BTW

I did NOT use another Chinese scrap metal tranny in my repair.



.... Phil
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