My Church Piano Conundrum

[t***@gmail.com]

I run sound for my church, a small building seating up to
100 people. My operating area is in the back, a Yamaha
USB mixer with built-in comps & FX, analog snake in and
mains/aux out to a pair of Mackie powered FOH and powered
monitor wedges. All powered speakers have 16" woofers and
their volumes are all kept at 12 o'clock.


The following is the piano our worship leader uses:
http://www.mltlive.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Yamaha_M08_Synthesizer_OwnersManual.pdf


According to the rear diagram in that manual, the piano feeds the
mixer from L/Mono out, via snake, to the aforementioned mixer.


I always request that the piano master volume be kept at half-way
up, so I can keep the mixer gain knob, aux send, and input fader for
the piano within a useful range. In order to do that, I also must keep
the -26dB pad inserted on the piano input. But after service, when I'm
powering down the sanctuary, I always find the piano volume all the way
up.


Now here's where it gets interesting: We occasionally have a well-known
guest worship leader, who tends to leave the piano volume as I left it,
and just lets me control him. But our regular leader turns it all the way up.
And under each scenario, the keyboard tone definitely sounds different.


Under our main worship leader, I have to keep the input gain kind of low,
and the input fader between -10 and -20VU. The sound is very loud and
kind of mushed. Under our guest, I can dial in a lot of input gain, crank
his aux send to his monitor, and run his fader right up to unity or -5VU It
sounds more like a real piano, with real attack and sustain to each key-
stroke.


So am I right to suggest keeping piano volume at the half-point and gain-
stage it up through the mixer, or should I let our main worship leader crank
it up, overpowering my board and giving me little control over what gets fed
to house Mackie speakers & wedges?

[t***@gmail.com]

Additional info:

This board is verrry similar to ours(maybe one
model year off): Loading Image...

[Phil Allison]

Post by t***@gmail.com
This board is verrry similar to ours(maybe one
model year off): http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/common_pa/images/photolibrary/analog_mixer/photolibrary_mixer_mg20xu_front.jpg

** I see "peak" lights fitted on each channel and you have not mentioned the one for the piano channel coming on - so I expect that it does not. If so, the desk is not clipping.

Your description of the problem is too vague to be of much use, what you say you are hearing may just be the different playing styles of the players - ie, one plays cleanly while and the other runs notes together all the time.



... Phil

[t***@gmail.com]

Phil Allison:


The peak lights on the board do not come on because I control the
input gain. All I'm saying is that the piano sounds different when its
volume is maxxed vs at a lower level. Playing style likely plays
*part* of a role in the difference in the sound.


During service, with our regular worship leader at the keys, I must
keep the piano fader on the mixer between -15 to -20VU and I'm
still blasting out this little church.


And that's another thing: The four powered Mackie speakers(2 house,
2 monitors) even with volumes set at 12 o'clock(halfway), more than
overwhelm this space.

[geoff]

Post by t***@gmail.com
During service, with our regular worship leader at the keys, I must
keep the piano fader on the mixer between -15 to -20VU and I'm
still blasting out this little church.

Not being one to pick hairs, but it's not "VU", it is "dB".

geoff

[None]

Post by geoff

Post by t***@gmail.com
During service, with our regular worship leader at the keys, I must
keep the piano fader on the mixer between -15 to -20VU and I'm
still blasting out this little church.

Not being one to pick hairs, but it's not "VU", it is "dB".

Of course, this has been explained to him countless times in a
different group; both in elementary terms and in technical terms. He
may almost grasp part of what you're saying for a few moments, but as
soon as he boards the short bus for his ride home, it all evaporates.
VU, dB, dBFS, normalizaton, compression, he seems to have some vague
notion that they're related, but he's content to use these kinds of
technical terms interchangeably. He doesn't really know what they
actually mean. The rudiments of gain staging, likewise, have been
explained to him, but it's clear that he's not capable of
understanding any of it.

[Phil Allison]

Post by None

Post by geoff

Post by t***@gmail.com
During service, with our regular worship leader at the keys, I must
keep the piano fader on the mixer between -15 to -20VU and I'm
still blasting out this little church.

Not being one to pick hairs, but it's not "VU", it is "dB".

Of course, this has been explained to him countless times in a
different group; both in elementary terms and in technical terms. He
may almost grasp part of what you're saying for a few moments, but as
soon as he boards the short bus for his ride home, it all evaporates.
VU, dB, dBFS, normalizaton, compression, he seems to have some vague
notion that they're related, but he's content to use these kinds of
technical terms interchangeably. He doesn't really know what they
actually mean.

** Not many sound system operators do or really need to in order
do their job. However, because of this lack of understanding many
wrong and even crazy notions about how audio gear operates take
hold instead.

VU meters are calibrated in dB but readings are regularly quoted
with "VU" after the number. A "VU" is not a measure of anything
but simply the name of the device - ie, a "volume unit".

So saying that a control is set at "-20VU" equates to it
being 20dB lower than some reference setting or in the OP's
case simply the number marked where to the control is pointing.

Many operators become obsessed with control settings looking
correct - settings at or near the maximum or minimum available
making them quite anxious. The OP seems to be one such.

One of my customers had me make in-line attenuators for two
phantom powered condenser mics he always used on drum kits
because he did not like having very low settings on the input
gain controls.

No point in debating it, a couple of -15
dB XLR attenuators
fitted at the mic inputs of the desk made him happy again.

FYI: passive attenuators used with phantom power must have
no resistors going to ground, just a pair in series and one
across the line at the output end.

So 2 x 470ohms and one 220ohms in this case.


... Phil

[geoff]

Post by Phil Allison
So 2 x 470ohms and one 220ohms in this case.

And 1% or better !

geoff

[geoff]

Post by Phil Allison

Post by t***@gmail.com
http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/common_pa/images/photolibrary/analog_mixer/photolibrary_mixer_mg20xu_front.jpg

** I see "peak" lights fitted on each channel and you have not
mentioned the one for the piano channel coming on - so I expect that
it does not. If so, the desk is not clipping.
Your description of the problem is too vague to be of much use, what
you say you are hearing may just be the different playing styles of
the players - ie, one plays cleanly while and the other runs notes
together all the time.

Differently dynamic piano presets maybe ? Both in attack and tonality ?

geoff

[Peter Larsen]

Post by t***@gmail.com
http://www.mltlive.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Yamaha_M08_Synthesizer_OwnersManual.pdf

Not read by me ...

Post by t***@gmail.com
According to the rear diagram in that manual, the piano feeds the
mixer from L/Mono out, via snake, to the aforementioned mixer.

Use stereo output if possible, remember that to the audience the bright
keys are to the LEFT.

Post by t***@gmail.com
I always request that the piano master volume be kept at half-way
up, so I can keep the mixer gain knob, aux send, and input fader for
the piano within a useful range. In order to do that, I also must keep
the -26dB pad inserted on the piano input. But after service, when I'm
powering down the sanctuary, I always find the piano volume all the way
up.

Which is what you should have asked for in the first place. It is simple
and exactly reproducible and they can't turn it more up that that.

Post by t***@gmail.com
Now here's where it gets interesting: We occasionally have a well-known
guest worship leader, who tends to leave the piano volume as I left it,
and just lets me control him. But our regular leader turns it all the way up.
And under each scenario, the keyboard tone definitely sounds different.

Yamaha tend to be competent folks and I expect their piano not to clip
if running flat out.

Post by t***@gmail.com
Under our main worship leader, I have to keep the input gain kind of low,
and the input fader between -10 and -20VU. The sound is very loud and
kind of mushed. Under our guest, I can dial in a lot of input gain, crank
his aux send to his monitor, and run his fader right up to unity or -5VU It
sounds more like a real piano, with real attack and sustain to each key-
stroke.

If your mixer can not handle a real world line input signal then use
inline attenuation.

Post by t***@gmail.com
So am I right to suggest keeping piano volume at the half-point and gain-
stage it up through the mixer,

No. You task is to maintain control over what happens, if you leave it
mid point all bets are off and it will be turned up.

Post by t***@gmail.com
or should I let our main worship leader crank
it up, overpowering my board and giving me little control over what gets fed
to house Mackie speakers & wedges?

Fix your board, it is faulty or get or build inline attenuator(s). If
you have a problem with the pianos line out then you are likely to also
have problems with other line outs.

The alternative is to desolder the piano volume control and replace with
fixed resistors that result in the output level you want. It unlikely to
be an option that will be tolerated.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[t***@gmail.com]

Thanks for the suggestions Peter.


It is my practice to NEVER fully 'crank' the volume/output
level on anything(iPod, laptop, piano, Walkman, etc) that I am
feeding into a board. Halfway-3/4 way up, and I
control the gain and fader level from the board. No
complaints about the sound quality.


And nowhere in that Yamaha manual that you didn't read
does it say where to set the main volume, cranked or
otherwise.


I even placed a piece of masking tape with an arrow pointing
to where piano volume should be set, and by the next Sunday,
it was gone, and the piano volume was all the way up.

[Peter Larsen]

Hi,

Post by t***@gmail.com
It is my practice to NEVER fully 'crank' the volume/output
level on anything(iPod, laptop, piano, Walkman, etc) that I am
feeding into a board. Halfway-3/4 way up, and I
control the gain and fader level from the board. No
complaints about the sound quality.

It is occasionally good practice to so do because it results in a tamper
safe setup.

Post by t***@gmail.com
And nowhere in that Yamaha manual that you didn't read
does it say where to set the main volume, cranked or
otherwise.

My expectation is of course that it doesn't clip because it is well
designed. If in doubt: record it and examine the curve-shape.

Post by t***@gmail.com
I even placed a piece of masking tape with an arrow pointing
to where piano volume should be set, and by the next Sunday,
it was gone, and the piano volume was all the way up.

I agree in that setting. I don't agree in the lack of dialog. My opinion
is that you ask for something that is silly for the musician because
just having it turned up full leaves nothing to worry about. The players
want it like that, it is proven possible, work with it rather than
against it.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[geoff]

Post by t***@gmail.com
Thanks for the suggestions Peter.
It is my practice to NEVER fully 'crank' the volume/output
level on anything(iPod, laptop, piano, Walkman, etc) that I am
feeding into a board. Halfway-3/4 way up, and I
control the gain and fader level from the board. No
complaints about the sound quality.

Google "gain-staging".

Post by t***@gmail.com
I even placed a piece of masking tape with an arrow pointing
to where piano volume should be set, and by the next Sunday,
it was gone, and the piano volume was all the way up.

So make your setup work with the piano volume on Full. Then they can't
dick with it.

geoff

[t***@gmail.com]

geoff wrote: "So make your setup work with the piano volume on Full. Then they can't
dick with it.

geoff "


I did. I inserted the board's -26dB pad, and used a lower trim knob
setting to get the same level in PFL. It's the PIANO that sounds
different with its volume up all the way, not my board settings.


Next Sunday I will ask our regular worship leader to play a service with it
at mid volume and see how he likes the sound. The guest worship
leader liked it, as well as his monitor mix sound, and he personally
told me so and thanked me.


My wife seems to think that since our regular leader is much younger
than the guest leader, he's into the hotter, louder all the time sound.

[t***@gmail.com]

#1. Our worship leader indeed uses
different voices/parameters than the
guest does.


#2. He agreed to a lower volume output,
and to me applying more gain at the mixer,
and indeed, the sound was more laid back
than with the volume cranked and less gain
applied at the board.